What is wrong with idol worship?

[Surya Deva]

Ax,

I think the best reason was already given at the start of the topic. Idol worship is no more better or no more worse than concept-worship or using words, except in idol worship one has something physical to relate to. Both are just as capable of offering worship, except most people require an aid. If this was not true Ax, then you would not find Sikh families hanging up pictures of the Gurus and you would not be worshipping a book in the temple. It is the same with Christians who worship before altars with Christ pictures or Crucifexes. It is the same with Muslims who worship the book Quran.

Idol worship is a very natural and human thing. Something that is natural cannot be good or bad, it's just a fact of our nature

To understand why idol worship works you need to understand how the mind works. All perceptions are created within the mind alone. When an idol worshipper, worships their idol, they are not worshipping anything outside of them, they are worshipping the idol within their mind. This is the first stage of worship.

The second stage of worship is when the idol worshipper goes beyond perception to the concept itself. The Idol will invoke certain thoughts and impressions, and the more positive that idol for the worshipper, the more positive those impressions will be.

The third stage of worship is when the Idol worshipper goes beyond the concept and into the meaning of the concept. This is when all those positive impressions will begin to coalese into something more and give special insights and inspirations.

The fourth stage of worship is when the idol worshipper enters into a meditative state where all that exists is the worshipper and the idol and nothing else. This is when the idol-worshiper feels love for the being of the idol.

The fifth stage of woship is when idol worshipper and the idol become one. There is no longer any duality. The idol worshipper has merged into the being of the idol and become that love.

This process is INTROVERSION; it's exactly the same process as meditation, only it uses an idol as an object of meditation. The ONLY difference between beginning with a physical object or a mental object is the mental object is already one step higher than a physical object, except the mental object in its beginning is just as superficial. Anybody that can relate to mental concepts can begin from mental concepts itself. I relate better to mental concepts, so I begin meditation from that. However, sometimes even I have to physicalise e.g., audibly repeating my Mantra to feel it before I mentally repeat it.

Introversion means you are beginning from your conscious level of awareness and going within to deeper subconscious and unconscious levels of awareness. You have to begin from your immediate level though. So even when you begin with a concept, you are really no better off than beginning with an idol, because they both more or less begin at the first level.

Therefore both are a valid means of worship/meditation. If an idol worshipper has succesfully realised the 5 stages I delinated above, then he/she has been much more succesful than somebody who has remanied at the superficial level. This is the case with a lot of non-idol worshippers who pray/meditate mechanically. It is like tending the surface vs digging into the surface. The aim of meditation and prayer is to go within, like drilling into your conscious world. If you are not doing that, your meditation is going nowhere and your prayers are not being heard by anyone. On the other hand, a sincere idol worshipper, who with absolute devotion loves his idol, is contacting the divine directly.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

you seem to be not getting the point -you yourself are saying that physical image sticks easily - is that really god? - that is deception.

Yes thers no where that god says worship me- but in order to know what god is you need to study/understand/realize it = worship. and us saying god you are great or not great during hymns etc really does not matter to god/ no way to know if it does.

I did not understand the second part Ax, but let me address the first bit.

No, the actual image is not GOD itself, but has the spirit of god and represents it. Hindus have never claimed that the very idol (image etc.) is god itself, all Hindus know that the idol itself its not the very god we worship. Its a representation of what we worship.
Its easier than worshipping nothing. When i close my eyes and pray i see that. What do you see when you close your eyes? Nothing?

 

[want to be hindu]

First Hinduism has its roots in no religion, its the other way round.

And i hesitate to call your religion a religion. After such faithful muslims said "Behead those who do not believe in Islam" in the placquards (i have no clue how to spell that ) in London. You also believe you like a 100 virgins if you blow up a few hundred people.

Religion at its finest.

The conclusion is that there is one god in Hindusim. Pay attention to class.

Saying this type of thing about someones faith is very un -Hindu. Islam is a path to God also. Look at all the great Sufi saints we could all learn from them.

 

[Surya Deva]

Want to be Hindu, the Sufi saints existed prior to Islam. Sufism began as a movement that combined the earlier mystic religion with Islam, probably because on its own it was considered heretical/pagan.

 

[want to be hindu]

Dude clearly we concieve with our senses and it is our barin/mind that makes us realize/self evaluate the information. And what is " If you think that god is different then your self then you too are an idol worshiper" supposed to mean. can you clarify - thinking that god is not a human makes me a idol worshiper? dude the definition of "idol" is "a form or appearance visible but without substance". that is "murati puja"="idol worship" that hindus do. You clearly know that idols are not god, therefore without substance -

Every worm that crawls under your feet is God

You are God

I am God

Rocks and Trees are God

The Sun the Moon the Cosmos is God. There is nothing but God.

So if all is God then the Murti is God also

Also words do not create a physical representation in our mind

Yes they do. If you say my fathers name I think of the form of my father.

Also if you are so educated,

I never said I Am educated. I am just a fool.

Humans are funny beings we love to put others down so we feel better about ourselfs. I find that I must give it alot of thought so I dont engage in hurtful behavior. I still fail all the time.

whats the point of offerings to idols that is done is hindu temples.

I will only talk about my school of Hindu thought. Some folks make offering and worship God to create a feeling of devotion to God. Then we expand that feeling of devotion to all beings we meet. We try to see God in everything and everyone. Every act, every breath, is a puja an act of prayer to God. Then one day we will realize if all is God then Iam also God and I will realze my true Self. Then I will be free to be a perfect servent of all. No ego to get in the way of Love.

When we sikhs use word to represent god, we are representing with a wholistic meaning, not in parts. Now please don't say this is not concievable - As you are educated you probably know this. I mean all the sikhs realize it as such. Also if god is one and absolute, why pray to "demi-gods", which you yourself say do not exist.

The Sikh path is a great path I Bow to Guru Nanak.

Also please explain me one thing more - according to mahabarta - bhagwan Ram existed, also Krishna Ji, were they demi gods or the "god".

The Lord Ram is God The Lord Krishna is God. You are God I am God.

Let me use a metaphor. Lets say God is a eternal ocean of bliss. I am just a little ripple in THAT ocean. A Rama , Krishna or even a Jesus is a huge tsunami that changes everything. So I call that special manifestation of Power, an Avatar or God herself.

I hope that this will help you better understand the Hindu point of view.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Saying this type of thing about someones faith is very un -Hindu. Islam is a path to God also. Look at all the great Sufi saints we could all learn from them.

I never for one second said that Islam is not a path to god. I simply pointed out a few beliefs to my freind

 

[want to be hindu]

I never for one second said that Islam is not a path to god. I simply pointed out a few beliefs to my freind

Then I am sorry

 

[ax0547]

Ax,

If this was not true Ax, then you would not find Sikh families hanging up pictures of the Gurus and you would not be worshipping a book in the temple. It is the same with Christians who worship before altars with Christ pictures or Crucifexes. It is the same with Muslims who worship the book Quran.

First of all - we hang picture for historical reasons not for wirshiping them. Even if some starts to worship a photo, thats because he/sge is a learner/"sikh" who is learniing the sikh way of life to be a Khalsa ( no one above to rule but god), they are startign to "sikh". Strictly idol worship is forbidden for sikhs. We never say that Guru Granth Sahib is god. Only reason we pay obedience is because it is our guru/teacher and has knowledge written in it - it is not same as "idol". An idol is "a form or appearance visible but without substance". Conctrastingly, Guru Granth Sahib is full of substance and knowldge, which is clearly available to every one,in clear words and same for everyone.

 

[ax0547]

Ax,

I think the best reason was already given at the start of the topic. Idol worship is no more better or no more worse than concept-worship or using words, except in idol worship one has something physical to relate to. Both are just as capable of offering worship, except most people require an aid.

Well, this is not the best reason. We as humans cannot judge and say that "God" says idol worship is wrong or right clearly. Therefore what is better or worse is just our human preception, according to us what is good or bad for us.On the other hand, according to our natural human preception, we precieve some ways/things as good other as bad regarding the established facts of nature. for example, to save time almost everyone would agree that walking a distance of 3 miles is better than walking a distance of 10 miles to reach one's job. the point here is saving time, while one way or the other way inherently is not better or worse. Additioanly, if on the 10 mile road, there are many more distractions, much more probability tha one could take other raods that lead to nothing, clealry this is worse according to our humans preception, as our goal is to reach the job. Again inherently one way or the other is not better or worse, but for the use we as humans want to make of the road - clearly one is better than the other = reletivity.

Now the main question of the thread is "what is wrong with idol worship?" - in next thread I am giong to let you know what is worse/wrong with idol worship- to reach our "job/god".

 

[Azakel]

- in next thread I am giong to let you know what is worse/wrong with idol worship- to reach our "job/god".

So You're going to start a thread just to tell us what is wrong with are own religious beliefs and what makes them worse then yours.

 

[ax0547]

Ax,

Idol worship is a very natural and human thing. Something that is natural cannot be good or bad, it's just a fact of our nature

I partly agree that somethign that is natural cannot be good or bad, because there is nothing good or bad- everyingthing just exists, if we as humans are not there to precieve. And clearly we precieve things as good or bad for our means of advancing from better to best.

 

[ax0547]

Ax,

To understand why idol worship works you need to understand how the mind works. All perceptions are created within the mind alone. When an idol worshipper, worships their idol, they are not worshipping anything outside of them, they are worshipping the idol within their mind. This is the first stage of worship.

The second stage of worship is when the idol worshipper goes beyond perception to the concept itself. The Idol will invoke certain thoughts and impressions, and the more positive that idol for the worshipper, the more positive those impressions will be.

The third stage of worship is when the Idol worshipper goes beyond the concept and into the meaning of the concept. This is when all those positive impressions will begin to coalese into something more and give special insights and inspirations.

The fourth stage of worship is when the idol worshipper enters into a meditative state where all that exists is the worshipper and the idol and nothing else. This is when the idol-worshiper feels love for the being of the idol.

The fifth stage of woship is when idol worshipper and the idol become one. There is no longer any duality. The idol worshipper has merged into the being of the idol and become that love.

1. Clearly what is better to go through five steps or just reading and understanding.

2. Also these five steps are very vague for a new learner to just grasp, that also if they do not go on the wrong path of worshiping just the physical representation of somehitng that is not physical and totally different.

3. whats the use ,if it takes one the whole to randomly some day realize the point - that the whole use of this idol was to represent something not representable through physical means - in order to realize the physically unseeable. in the end, now not pray to the minds picture of idol, in order to be not in duality.

4. clearly the idol itself does not impart knowledge, it is the self evaluation of the person - into why he/she's worshiping the idol and contrastingly realize that what he's doing is just mere representation - where as reading and gaining knowledge is way ahead and easily accesible and fast - and better - as the whole goal is to realize what is god.

5. now yo might say- o we have vedas that one can read and gain knowledge. now even for this - according to our human preception some books are better written than others. I will not say that vedas are any better or worse in my preception, as until now no one explained to me the question I had asked regarding Krishan ji and Ram ji - a few posts back? please answer. Until now my preception of vedas is that they led me into duality - if this is better or worse is upto you to judge. for me Duality is the one big thing that keeps one from unifying/realizing with god.

Overall thanks for explaining how the idol worship works - Clearly the 5 steps you said state that it's duality that one needs to get out of. Also clearly one's human preceptions would say that the first 4 steps are in coontrast to the last, as they are the one's that would lead one into duality = something physical and non-physical are two different things = using physical means to worship non physical = dulaity, untilone reaches reralizes the last step. Which is ulitemately using one knowledge gained - may be through vedas?, people or using mere brain. Now its upto you to decide is it better use the 5 steps you told i.e. use duality to reach non-duality. or just read and understand and reach non duality and get rid of dulaity. Also reading and understang is clear and easy, if one does it = most huamns would precieve this as such - i don't knw about you. ulitmately even if one does not do it - sikhs path does not inheently lead into duality, whereas the first four steps of idol worship do.
------------------Thsi is what is wrong with Idol worship------lol

 

[ax0547]

Ax,

This process is INTROVERSION; it's exactly the same process as meditation, only it uses an idol as an object of meditation. The ONLY difference between beginning with a physical object or a mental object is the mental object is already one step higher than a physical object, except the mental object in its beginning is just as superficial. Anybody that can relate to mental concepts can begin from mental concepts itself. I relate better to mental concepts, so I begin meditation from that. However, sometimes even I have to physicalise e.g., audibly repeating my Mantra to feel it before I mentally repeat it.

Introversion means you are beginning from your conscious level of awareness and going within to deeper subconscious and unconscious levels of awareness. You have to begin from your immediate level though. So even when you begin with a concept, you are really no better off than beginning with an idol, because they both more or less begin at the first level.

Therefore both are a valid means of worship/meditation. If an idol worshipper has succesfully realised the 5 stages I delinated above, then he/she has been much more succesful than somebody who has remanied at the superficial level. This is the case with a lot of non-idol worshippers who pray/meditate mechanically. It is like tending the surface vs digging into the surface. The aim of meditation and prayer is to go within, like drilling into your conscious world. If you are not doing that, your meditation is going nowhere and your prayers are not being heard by anyone. On the other hand, a sincere idol worshipper, who with absolute devotion loves his idol, is contacting the divine directly.

Sir, Introversion according to dictionary Introversion is : the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life .

Idol worship is not exactly the same,as meditation through understanding of written words and as explained before, idol worship is partly leading into dulity. Offcourse the words can lead into duality too if they are written such, but one big point in SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji is getting rid of duality and that through understand by reading the written words of Gurbani, which is not about reaching but instead eliminating duality =sikh meditation.

Also clearly you yourself said one is better than other* point to be noted. ----------------"The ONLY difference between beginning with a physical object or a mental object is the mental object is already one step higher than a physical object, except the mental object in its beginning is just as superficial.".---------------------------------------- Now if your idol meditation leads you into creating mental superficial obejcts - thats duality - Gurbani does not- atleast thats the whole point.

There is a big difference in mental "concept" and mental "object" - concepts are rerlated to understand, while obejects inhereently do not lead to understand - you will have to resort to the concept of the object.

"I relate better to mental concepts, so I begin meditation from that. However, sometimes even I have to physicalise e.g., audibly repeating my Mantra to feel it before I mentally repeat it." ----- ok but the poin t of this thred is " why is idol worship wrong". I eaplined so. - sound leadins to preception, now it is not something physical. If you are mentally picturing the words they are not the same as idol and idols have no inherent substance - especially the hindu idols comapred to what god really is - it is mre representation. words themsleves inherently have meaning - atleats better than the vague meaing of idol if any. Even if idols have some meaning associated - how would they represent the non-physical - words can easilty do that.

Again, Introversion according to dictionary Introversion is : the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life .

Idol worship predominantly is not inherently concerned with one's mental life, while words of Gurbani explicitly are. - therefore idol worship is not introversion.

I have explained you so many things that are wrong with idol worship - or in other words worse. Now if one does not read Gurbani - he/she may go into duality, but inherently Gurbani is agianst duality there fore a better road to realize god - atleast is my preception. Now you minght diagree i.e. your preception might be different - but i have expalined to you clearly whaty is worng woth idol worship. conclusively idols might be an easy aid - but they inherently lead into duality, so what the use of ease if it leads you off track.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

 

[blueman]

I don't understand why people look down on idol-worshippers, isn't it just another kind of worship, just as legitimate as any other?

God stated in the Bible that "There shall be no other gods before me". Anytime you woship anything in place of God, you are disregarding and disrespecting His Divine Authority as Lord. In light of this fact, God does give each and every human a free will to choose. He does not force you to worship Him, but rather do it willingly.

 

[ax0547]

So You're going to start a thread just to tell us what is wrong with are own religious beliefs and what makes them worse then yours.

i meant answer this thread - the question it self asks " whats wrong with idol worship?".

 

[Surya Deva]

Well, this is not the best reason. We as humans cannot judge and say that "God" says idol worship is wrong or right clearly. Therefore what is better or worse is just our human preception, according to us what is good or bad for us.

Well we humans cannot even say whether god exists So if you say we can't know how god wants to be worshipped, then that itself is not tenable.

Worship is done for a different reason to free oneself fromn ego. I cannot worship something, if I do not accept the existence of something higher than me. I accept my parents as higher than me, I accept the universe as higher than me, I accept all accomplished noble men and women as higher than me. I worship them Whose god?

Overall thanks for explaining how the idol worship works - Clearly the 5 steps you said state that it's duality that one needs to get out of. Also clearly one's human preceptions would say that the first 4 steps are in coontrast to the last, as they are the one's that would lead one into duality = something physical and non-physical are two different things = using physical means to worship non physical = dulaity, untilone reaches reralizes the last step.

You make an error of identification here. A non-physical is not necessarily non-duality. Space and time are non-physical things, but they are dualistic things. There is no space and no time without there being duality.

Everything that we know in this world is duality. This applies as much to words and concepts as it does to images and idols. So while our goal is non-duality we have to go from duality to non-duality. So whether you begin with dual words or concepts or images and idols, it's all the same.

that also if they do not go on the wrong path of worshiping just the physical representation of somehitng that is not physical and totally different.

This applies just as much the non-idol worshipper. The idol worshipper can go wrong by becoming attached to the physical; the non idol worshipper can go wrong by becoming attached to the word or concept.

3. whats the use ,if it takes one the whole to randomly some day realize the point - that the whole use of this idol was to represent something not representable through physical means - in order to realize the physically unseeable. in the end, now not pray to the minds picture of idol, in order to be not in duality.

Again the same applies to non-idol-worship. The worshipper needs to be constantly aware that their aim is transcendence, and not become attached to the idol, or the word or concept.

clearly the idol itself does not impart knowledge, it is the self evaluation of the person - into why he/she's worshiping the idol and contrastingly realize that what he's doing is just mere representation - where as reading and gaining knowledge is way ahead and easily accesible and fast - and better - as the whole goal is to realize what is god.

No, the idol cannot impart knowledge or feeling. Nor can the book. The knowledge or feeling comes from within through meditation on the idol or book.

now yo might say- o we have vedas that one can read and gain knowledge. now even for this - according to our human preception some books are better written than others. I will not say that vedas are any better or worse in my preception, as until now no one explained to me the question I had asked regarding Krishan ji and Ram ji - a few posts back? please answer. Until now my preception of vedas is that they led me into duality - if this is better or worse is upto you to judge. for me Duality is the one big thing that keeps one from unifying/realizing with god.

The Vedas declare themselves simply knowing the Vedas is not enough. One has to realise their meaning: Brahman. The Vedas state this constantly through the Vedas realise that non-duality. This is the whole purpose of life and the message of the Vedas.

Sir, Introversion according to dictionary Introversion is : the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life .

Idol worship is not exactly the same,as meditation through understanding of written words and as explained before, idol worship is partly leading into dulity. Offcourse the words can lead into duality too if they are written such, but one big point in SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji is getting rid of duality and that through understand by reading the written words of Gurbani, which is not about reaching but instead eliminating duality =sikh meditation.

Introversion is simply going inside. There are three ways to go inside:

KNOWLEDGE - THROUGH MEANING OF WORDS
DEVOTION - THOUGH DEVOTION OR LOVE OF A THING
WORK - THOUGH IMMERSION IN WORK

They are all just as valid. They can all take you to non-duality, but in different ways -- knowledge will lead to absolute knowledge; devotion will lead to absolute love and work will lead to absolute dedication.

There is a big difference in mental "concept" and mental "object" - concepts are rerlated to understand, while obejects inhereently do not lead to understand - you will have to resort to the concept of the object.

There isn't, everything we can render in our perception is an object. If we are the subject, then everything that we can render in our perception is an object. Every concept, every sensible thing, even our own self.

"I relate better to mental concepts, so I begin meditation from that. However, sometimes even I have to physicalise e.g., audibly repeating my Mantra to feel it before I mentally repeat it." ----- ok but the poin t of this thred is " why is idol worship wrong". I eaplined so. - sound leadins to preception, now it is not something physical. If you are mentally picturing the words they are not the same as idol and idols have no inherent substance - especially the hindu idols comapred to what god really is - it is mre representation. words themsleves inherently have meaning - atleats better than the vague meaing of idol if any. Even if idols have some meaning associated - how would they represent the non-physical - words can easilty do that.

Yes, mentally picturing things is not the same as having a physical idol. No matter how much I try to picture a thing in my mind, I cannot imagine it in the same as way as I perceive things. It is vague, incoherent and blurry. It is much better having thing in front of me. The same goes with sounds, I cannot mentally perceive sounds very easily and never with the same clarity as a real sound. So rather frustrating myself trying to imagine something I can't, i'd rather begin with the physical manifestation of it and let that lead me into the non-physical.

Idol worship predominantly is not inherently concerned with one's mental life, while words of Gurbani explicitly are. - therefore idol worship is not introversion.

No, idol worship is concerned with ones INNER LIFE. It is about toching love directly. Love is much greater than intellect.

 

[.lava]

Love is much greater than intellect.

if it is the greatest intellect that you love...which is God.


.

 

[ax0547]

Hey suraj - I will answer but i need to study for exams first - I must say you are very arrogant - but I will clear my answer further but do not time right now! don't worry! take care. lol:shout

 

[Surya Deva]

Hey suraj - I will answer but i need to study for exams first - I must say you are very arrogant - but I will clear my answer further but do not time right now! don't worry! take care. lol:shout

lol, I am very arrogant. Wait a min let me run that by myself again: You are the one telling everybody who idol worships they are wrong, I am instead saying that both are as valid as each other, and I'm the one whose very arrogant

Good luck on your exam

 

[misanthropic_clown]

I think my opinion reflects that of a few people who have posted. Whereas I am hardly offended by the concept of idol worship, in my faith developing a personal relationship with God is a very important endeavour. Whilst worshiping through a physical representation of God isn't particularly harmful to that endeavour, I think it would symbolically undermine that personal relationship we can have with the real God.

We can reach God anywhere, He is always with us and we theoretically can communicate with Him at any place and at any time. Perhaps a God who grants that gift and privilege would be offended at the notion of us transfixing all our worship into an idol, even if it is just as a symbolic intermediate.

That said, many people view their relationship with God in a different way, and it is ultimately up to them to decide whether idol worship is appropriate for that relationship. In my belief of my relationship with God, it is not so.