What is wrong with idol worship?

[ax0547]

Ax, You don't even know what Khalsa means. Khalsa was setup by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to protect Hindu dharma. Do you know Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a Shiva worshipper?

Sir, I am a Khalsa, and you are telling me that I don't know what is Khalsa. awesome, and you say I am ridulinig myself.

I guratantte you are a RSS AND SHIV SENA supporter!

If you gono take Guru Granth sahib home and do rituals , without understanding what it is saying, then you are wrong, not SIKHISM.

 

[andys]

Why would anyone worship anything or anyone, anyway?

I certainly see no point worshiping an inanimate object, such as a holy book, since it is incapable of appreciating the gesture. This leaves god to worship.

But, again, what is the point? To stroke his ego? The only explanation I can imagine for engaging in an act of worship is that it serves as an overt demonstration of one's compliance. Compliance to the god who demands this worship, and compliance with the rules and rituals before watchful members of the religious clan. The motivation for this compliance is twofold: 1) fear of reprisal from the god and or the god-worshiping clan—a prudent move in view of religions' tendency for reprisal against those who do not comply—and 2) the desire to be rewarded—eternal life, "heaven", etc.

Both motives are entirely self-serving, which reveals the true benefactor of worship—one's self.

This isn't meant as an attack or an insult to those who worship; it is my sincere explanation for why people worship. There may be a variety of perceived reasons, but certainly, worship offers the consolation that one will gain favour in the eyes of a god and by one's (religious) peers, and ultimately, it offers the promise of a meaningful existence in this world and eternal existence in yet another.

As an Atheist, it seems to me that if there really were a truly loving, father-figure god, he wouldn't expect his children to cower before him on bended knee or with head bowed.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

The definition of illusion is

1. An erroneous perception of reality.
2. An erroneous concept or belief.
3. The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.
4. Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception.

Explain to me how you are not doing such -I have given you my point of view of why and how it is worng - proove you point or don't ***!

I am being decieved by a false perception? Idol worship is not illusion, it makes more sense than worshipping nothing, better than worshipping thin air. Some Sikhs worship your Holy Book, and dont tell me i am wrong because i do know some Sikhs who tell me they worship your book.


I dont think i need you to tell me what an illusion is. What you given me is an opinion, and not a fact, no matter how much you try to prove something which cannot be proved.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Why would anyone worship anything or anyone, anyway?

...

As an Atheist, it seems to me that if there really were a truly loving, father-figure god, he wouldn't expect his children to cower before him on bended knee or with head bowed.

It is quite true that the ultimate recipients of the advantages of worship are ourselves as believers. However, our worship (as you note) is not all about being on bended knee with head bowed. It is about working with God to develop oneself to your full potential. The following is probably my favourite quote of all time, by the Christian writer C. S. Lewis. I have probably already shared this in this forum, but perhaps in it you can see what I view as the ultimate aim of worship.

"I find I must borrow yet another parable from George MacDonald. Imagine
yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first,
perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right
and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on: you knew that those jobs
needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently he starts knocking
the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make
sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building
quite a different house from the one you thought of- throwing out a new wing
here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards.
You thought you were going to be made into a decent little cottage: but He
is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself.
The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to
do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that
command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make
good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will
make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling,
radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy
and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror
which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale)
His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long
and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He
meant what He said."

Taken from 'Mere Christianity'

 

[ax0547]

Why would anyone worship anything or anyone, anyway?

I certainly see no point worshiping an inanimate object, such as a holy book, since it is incapable of appreciating the gesture. This leaves god to worship.

But, again, what is the point? To stroke his ego? The only explanation I can imagine for engaging in an act of worship is that it serves as an overt demonstration of one's compliance. Compliance to the god who demands this worship, and compliance with the rules and rituals before watchful members of the religious clan. The motivation for this compliance is twofold: 1) fear of reprisal from the god and or the god-worshiping clan—a prudent move in view of religions' tendency for reprisal against those who do not comply—and 2) the desire to be rewarded—eternal life, "heaven", etc.

Both motives are entirely self-serving, which reveals the true benefactor of worship—one's self.

This isn't meant as an attack or an insult to those who worship; it is my sincere explanation for why people worship. There may be a variety of perceived reasons, but certainly, worship offers the consolation that one will gain favour in the eyes of a god and by one's (religious) peers, and ultimately, it offers the promise of a meaningful existence in this world and eternal existence in yet another.

As an Atheist, it seems to me that if there really were a truly loving, father-figure god, he wouldn't expect his children to cower before him on bended knee or with head bowed.

First of all the following are the meaning of worship.
–noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.


2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.


3.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.


4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.


5.
(initial capital letter ) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).

–verb (used with object)
6.
to render religious reverence and homage to.


7.
to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

–verb (used without object)
8.
to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.


9.
to attend services of divine worship.


10.
to feel an adoring reverence or regard.


I totally agree with your point here. We tend to use the 10th definition, as we treat the holy book as our “teacher”. Now yes we cover it with a cloth and change it everyday, that is to keep it clean and undamaged, not as to we put a t-shirt over. We not only give respect as teacher but also as our “king”, so called – as giving it the highest authority above us. As to you would give to a nation’s president and accept his/her authority as chosen by the people. Certainly the book does not appreciate the gesture, but from our point of view – it is our teacher and this is the pattern everyone shows respect in our school to the teacher. As you would shake hand with friends in a group- everyone tends to bow our head in front of the book, as acceptance of lower level and sign of humility in a congression.


I see “But, again, what is the point? To stroke his ego? The only explanation I can imagine for engaging in an act of worship is that it serves as an overt demonstration of one's compliance. Compliance to the god who demands this worship, and compliance with the rules and rituals before watchful members of the religious clan. The motivation for this compliance is twofold: 1) fear of reprisal from the god and or the god-worshiping clan—a prudent move in view of religions' tendency for reprisal against those who do not comply—and”
Now, we Sikhs don’t worship because god wants us to – then there’s no point – if there was proof that god says worship- then that would end the dilemma of if there’s god or not. Now I see your point in the fear of reprisal from god worshipping clan. To answer this – a Sikh place of worship is called Gurudwara, i.e. teacher’s door/house. Now anytime you go to a school there are set rules how to behave and all that. If initially you don’t agree with those rules then the teacher/principal/or even the students who get disturbed by your not following the code of conduct, would not be happy. Same is in our gurudwara, if initially you are not setting yourself as a student, then what’s the point to even go there? Certainly We are not extremists – if you come and don’t want to bow head that’s fine- It is to show your inner self that – I am lower than my teacher and I am here to learn; if you think you are fine without that – that’s cool too. The Sikh itself means a learner, by the way. I don’t if you call this worship or just some rule of a school.
Now, regarding God worship, that’s different, in addition to #10, worship god is in effect understanding word “god”, not to get benefit, but as result you won’t be doing irrational rituals, idol worship, pilgrimages with expectation of benefit etc. so on. That is considered worship or reverence or respect to God, as then one would not be going about doing false and irrational things and truly using god’s gift of rationality and consciousness. Sort of like you study and in effect gain knowledge of what is wrong and what is right – rather than doing other time waste stuff. Overall I agree with you that worship should not be done with a benefit expected in mind, that’s mere deception of oneself. Here are some quote –
"When the lamp is lit, the darkness is dispelled; through reading the scriptures, sinful intellect is destroyed. It is like when the sun rises, the moon is not visible. Wherever spiritual wisdom appears, ignorance is dispelled."
Guru Nanak, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, P. 791
Taste with your tongue the subtle essence of the Almighty by dwelling on and contemplating the True Word of the Sabad. The Lord's Ambrosial Nectar is overflowing in the depth of your heart; as the water-carrier, you may draw and drink the divine nectar through the Sabad.
Guru Amar Daas, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, P. 570.
Universal is my God and, therefore, his Lingua franca is universal. His word is written in a book of the time.
Guru Nanak, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p. 421.
Here is example of that bowing head to god id considered illogical –
Hindu worshipping their idols to their death; the Muslims perish while bowing their heads.
Kabir, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p. 656.
Stone worship was considered a mis-guided practice.
The ignorant dense pick up stones and worship them.
Guru Nanak, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p. 556.
Similarly, lifeless objects were considered unwise to worship.
You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at the end you shall endure heavy consequences.
Kabir, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p. 332.
Why worship gods and goddesses(of hindu's-dieties), O Siblings of Destiny? What can we ask of them? What can they give us?
Guru Nanak, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p. 637.
I am not torn by duality, because I do not worship any other than the Sustainer; I do not visit tombs or crematoriums to worship.
Gur Nanak, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p. 634.

 

[ax0547]

I am being decieved by a false perception? Idol worship is not illusion, it makes more sense than worshipping nothing, better than worshipping thin air. Some Sikhs worship your Holy Book, and dont tell me i am wrong because i do know some Sikhs who tell me they worship your book.


I dont think i need you to tell me what an illusion is. What you given me is an opinion, and not a fact, no matter how much you try to prove something which cannot be proved.

dude it's not opinion - I have provided you with definition - tell me how you are not following the definition - just saying no won't be enough. Another point - if there's not visible god, and somehow that justifies your making idols and start worshiping it instead ? yourself compare this to the definition of illusion. - please don't get angry!

 

[andys]

You claim that worship "is about working with God to develop oneself to your [one's] full potential". You cite a daft analogy to illustrate this assertion, which likens you to a living house that god takes upon himself to completely renovate by knocking down walls and adding wings in a way that seems not to make any sense. His purpose? Ah, to take up residence in your house after HE deems it fit to occupy! This outright invasion does not trouble you in the least. Indeed you perceive it as an honour: God has decreed the command "Be ye perfect" and "He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command".

Whew. I must say, you are certainly very...accommodating! Without permission to take over your residence, I trust—at the very least—god obtained a building permit.

I am puzzled that you bothered to post a reply to me, since you whole-heartedly agree with me that the reason people worship is ultimately self-serving. As the words you cite words attest:
"He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine."

Hmm. Sounds like you who feel feeble and filthy are are in the market for a quick reno. Isn't that what this is really all about, poor misanthropic clown? After all, misanthropes have "an overriding contempt towards common human faults and weaknesses in others and in some cases, themselves. They generally won't find solace or effective functioning in society as a result of their perspective". [Wikipedia]

 

[andys]

Your lengthy reply was indeed...lengthy. Yet, after reading it and rereading it, I am not sure what your point was.

I confess that I am not knowledgeable about your religion, Sikhism. I must say that after a little research, it would seem (to me) that it is a relatively benign religion, compared to most others. Apparently, you have no meddling priesthood, no apparent hidden agenda to "spread the word", and no claim to superiority. Alas, it's still a religion after all, offering the all too familiar tantalizing rewards to entice the unwary.

In any case, if I understand you correctly, you liken Sikh worship to showing respect "As you would shake hand with friends in a group..." That's fine, really, except that gestures like shaking hands are not acts of worship. Worship does not involve mutual respect between two or more parties. It involves the express acknowledgment, on the part of the one who offers worship, that he is of lower status (in one way or another) in relation to the object of his worship. Indeed, this sense of inferiority is so pronounced (awe) that it accounts for the act of worship.

So I am concerned about these words of yours which seem to imply that you do engage in worship: "...everyone tends to bow our head in front of the [holy] book, as acceptance of lower level and sign of humility".

 

[misanthropic_clown]

You claim that worship "is about working with God to develop oneself to your [one's] full potential". You cite a daft analogy to illustrate this assertion, which likens you to a living house that god takes upon himself to completely renovate by knocking down walls and adding wings in a way that seems not to make any sense. His purpose? Ah, to take up residence in your house after HE deems it fit to occupy! This outright invasion does not trouble you in the least. Indeed you perceive it as an honour: God has decreed the command "Be ye perfect" and "He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command".

Whew. I must say, you are certainly very...accommodating! Without permission to take over your residence, I trust—at the very least—god obtained a building permit.

I am puzzled that you bothered to post a reply to me, since you whole-heartedly agree with me that the reason people worship is ultimately self-serving. As the words you cite words attest:
"He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine."

Hmm. Sounds like you who feel feeble and filthy are are in the market for a quick reno. Isn't that what this is really all about, poor misanthropic clown? After all, misanthropes have "an overriding contempt towards common human faults and weaknesses in others and in some cases, themselves. They generally won't find solace or effective functioning in society as a result of their perspective". [Wikipedia]

I'm not actually altogether that misanthropic towards others, though I must say I do have contempt of my own weaknesses. It seems you appear to have a contempt towards me having an ideal to work with God to improve myself to eliminate my weaknesses and 'reno' myself into a greater person. I don't really understand what you find so contemptuous about that, though you appear to have issue with the invasion process (which if you read the quote carefully you would realise is a voluntary one, and therefore less of an invasion than a joint effort - "If we let Him-for we can prevent Him")

And I do agree that we get a heck of a lot as a result of worshiping God and working with Him by obeying His commandments. But it is not a pain free process. We cannot exchange hollow words of compliance and expect this transformation to occur. We must take our challenges on day by day, unrelentingly working to overcome our weaknesses - not only ridding ourselves of bad habits but developing good ones - repenting of our mistakes when we fall short. We earn the privilege of having God's hand guiding our selves and moulding us into the people we should want to be. It is an exchange that is ultimately favouring our end by an infinite margin, but that is testament to me of the love of God more than the greed of man.

 

[crystalonyx]

I don't understand why people look down on idol-worshippers, isn't it just another kind of worship, just as legitimate as any other?

Nothing really, everyone is free to believe as they will.

 

[herushura]

nothing, its just idol(sun) worship

 

[ax0547]

Your lengthy reply was indeed...lengthy. Yet, after reading it and rereading it, I am not sure what your point was.

I confess that I am not knowledgeable about your religion, Sikhism. I must say that after a little research, it would seem (to me) that it is a relatively benign religion, compared to most others. Apparently, you have no meddling priesthood, no apparent hidden agenda to "spread the word", and no claim to superiority. Alas, it's still a religion after all, offering the all too familiar tantalizing rewards to entice the unwary.

In any case, if I understand you correctly, you liken Sikh worship to showing respect "As you would shake hand with friends in a group..." That's fine, really, except that gestures like shaking hands are not acts of worship. Worship does not involve mutual respect between two or more parties. It involves the express acknowledgment, on the part of the one who offers worship, that he is of lower status (in one way or another) in relation to the object of his worship. Indeed, this sense of inferiority is so pronounced (awe) that it accounts for the act of worship.

So I am concerned about these words of yours which seem to imply that you do engage in worship: "...everyone tends to bow our head in front of the [holy] book, as acceptance of lower level and sign of humility".

So whats the point- look everyone who has not learned the sikh way of life to the fullest is still regarded as Sikh/learner. Now the one's who are new might be initially looking for some beinfit for finding god, but as they understand SIkhism, they would come to know that this is not how it works. This is not problem with the religion or anything. Your question was why worship at all. I gave you the definition of worship - and examples of why we "reagrd/adore" etc in a congression. May be I was wrong in comparing the hand shake example, but you get the point why worship at all. Now If you want to make up and presuppose that since it's a religion it has to has some rewards, that just childish. By the way, Sikhism only lately has been called a religion - but in reality is it called the way of life originally, but since there are hindu's that just want to say everyone is a hindu - we had to differencate our idieas and principles by refering as a diff religion = diff entity. Yes worship does not have to have mutual respet or anything with god or the holy book as they are inanimate objects - respect is for within a congression and other students. sort of code of conduct - it is only onesided and without presupposition of benifits - now if in reality someone thinks the he/she got rewarded somehow by doing worship that's different.

I have question for you - If you see people worshipping stones and doing prayers5,10,20 times a day for benifits, using religion to do wrongthings and you are youself are very ratioanal and knowledgeable that this is not how it works. Then you go to poor and uneducated and tell them, that "just think about the word god" and realize what is god and what not by yourself. Further you tell them by doing so you will be out of isslusion and not doing irrational things - would you considered this imparting of knowledge or suducing them in benifits - regardless of if there's a god or not?

 

[Don Penguinoini]

dude it's not opinion - I have provided you with definition - tell me how you are not following the definition - just saying no won't be enough. Another point - if there's not visible god, and somehow that justifies your making idols and start worshiping it instead ? yourself compare this to the definition of illusion. - please don't get angry!

Maybe my reply was a little brash, but, if im following an illusion by worshipping an idol, then you are following an illusion by worshipping nothing.

It does justify it. We needed something to personify God, since we figured it would be easier to worship God with something visual.

 

[Surya Deva]

Don,

Ax's position is inconsistent. He speaks against idol worship, and yet Sikhism worships a book, most Sikhs have pictures of Sikh Gurus and pray to them.

Ax, look up the encylopedia of Britannica, it says Sikhism began as a movement within Hinduism. It is well known to anybody who knows anything about world religion that Sikhism is just Hinduism in another avatar. It is not that different to even be acknowledged as a different religion. It could easily just be accepted as another sect of Hinduism. Indeed, me belonging to a very devout Sikh family myself, also consider ourselves Hindu.

Sadly, you know what it is like there are separatists in all religions, who want to claim their own identity. However, it is hard to claim a separate identity, when virtually everything within your religion is derived from another.

 

[ax0547]

Maybe my reply was a little brash, but, if im following an illusion by worshipping an idol, then you are following an illusion by worshipping nothing.

It does justify it. We needed something to personify God, since we figured it would be easier to worship God with something visual.

Dude - - just making an idol is no comparision to what god is. Well worship as I said before is adoration or reverence to. We wroship or adore it by thinking about the concept "god" and then realizing what it in actuality is or is not. You and I both know that god is invisible but manifested through physical. It is the underlying principle that includes and runs the physical. Now If you want to make an Idol for your own mean and personify it as god and start worshiping it = thats illusion - *read the definition clearly*, we pray it for as it is , by learning about and not going into taking a piece of its creation as god. Take it holistically as unseable etc etc. that is essentailly what the reality is not illusion. that piece of rock is going to give you no knowledge unless you use your own brain.

 

[ax0547]

Don,

Ax's position is inconsistent. He speaks against idol worship, and yet Sikhism worships a book, most Sikhs have pictures of Sikh Gurus and pray to them.

Ax, look up the encylopedia of Britannica, it says Sikhism began as a movement within Hinduism. It is well known to anybody who knows anything about world religion that Sikhism is just Hinduism in another avatar. It is not that different to even be acknowledged as a different religion. It could easily just be accepted as another sect of Hinduism. Indeed, me belonging to a very devout Sikh family myself, also consider ourselves Hindu.

i would rather call my self a human before even calling myself a sikh but never a hindu!
Sadly, you know what it is like there are separatists in all religions, who want to claim their own identity. However, it is hard to claim a separate identity, when virtually everything within your religion is derived from another.

dude it is wordly recognized as distinct religion, what are you talking about. Our own first guru said that he is niether hindu nor muslim. you pray to cows we don't. ther are so many differences. It is people like you who are learners that worship pics, but have not realized the essence of sikhism. don't just say anything provide proof and examples. If most people that accepted sikhism are hindu's what can I do in that - that does not make us hindu - we are strictly monothiestic. And you just keep rambling on - I have dared you to go into a sikh temple and say Sikhs are hindu's - you gono get beat up so bad. - You RSS ****. I cannot stop you from calling your self a Sikh as you are essentially a learner too - but don't just stop at what you think is right ir wrong. Just saying he noting gono make sikhs's hindu's. So now you are saying that all sikhs are spratists ? what is your problem. Even the moderator sikhism is distinct and completly opposite to hindu principles - -- you looser.

 

[Surya Deva]

I must say Ax you are very civilised, I am impressed

Our own first guru said that he is niether hindu nor muslim. you pray to cows we don't.

Guru Nanak is saying he has no religious label. He is not saying, "I am neither Hindu nor Muslim, I am Sikh" I honestly don't think you understand anything about Sikhism. Hindus pray to cows? They don't pray to cows, they honour and respect cows. You don't seem to know anything about Hindusim either.

Your learning is showing very well in your post.

 

[ax0547]

I must say Ax you are very civilised, I am impressed



Guru Nanak is saying he has no religious label. He is not saying, "I am neither Hindu nor Muslim, I am Sikh" I honestly don't think you understand anything about Sikhism. Hindus pray to cows? They don't pray to cows, they honour and respect cows. You don't seem to know anything about Hindusim either.

Your learning is showing very well in your post.

Exactly if our first guru saud he does not have a religious label of hindu or muslim -why are you labeling him as hindu - just becasue he was born to hindu parents - He clearly rejected hindu Ideology!

If you are the "civilized" then I am ok being a non civilized!

read this
it is on hindu news paper itself - - read it carefully - a hindu wrote it!

The Hindu : Are the Sikhs Hindus?

I am not hindu - why learn about it in detail if as much I learned was enough for me to proove "Hinduism" as you are representing it!

 

[Surya Deva]

Ax, I am afraid your kind of civilisedness will get you banned from this forum. It is not permissabe here to call people "sluts, losers and whores" I wouldn't want to see you banned. I am sure you can make your points without those decorations, right?

Regarding Guru Nanak. Yes, he has no religious label, that does not mean he is not a part of Hinduism. If you knew something about Hinduism you would know that there is no word for the religion or its practioners. The word 'Hindu' is not even in Hindu scriptures, it is a foreign word used to refer to the Indian people and the way of life they practice. This is why Guru Nanak said, "There is no Hindu, and there is no Muslim" he means there that everybody is the same, a soul, and soul has no labels.

Anway lets return to the topic. Does Sikhism worship a book, yes or no?

 

[ax0547]

Ax, I am afraid your kind of civilisedness will you get banned from this forum. It is not permissabe here to call people "sluts, losers and whores" I wouldn't want to see you banned. I am sure you can makeyour points without those decorations, right?

Regarding Guru Nanak. Yes, he has no religious label, that does not mean he is not a part of Hinduism. If you knew something about Hinduism you would know that there is no word for the religion or its practioners. The word 'Hindu' is not even in Hindu scriptures, it is a foreign word used to refer to the Indian people and the way of life they practice. This is why Guru Nanak said, "There is no Hindu, and there is no Muslim" he means there everybody is the same, a soul and soul has no labels.

Anway lets return to the topic. Does Sikhism worship a book, yes or no?

The meaning of worship giving reverance to and respect - yes we give respect to our holy book - but is not god - we bow our head to the meaning of words written in book, but not the cover or it as an object!

so what was your opinion to the arcticle mr civilizd!

we don't say it represents god - it clearly is not idol as it has substanial informatino written in it.