What is wrong with idol worship?

[Surya Deva]

Nope I am not implicating all Muslims. That is what you have interpreted. But what I am saying is that Muslims need to take responsibility for their history and for the hate-doctrine in the Quran which any good and responsible religion would have publically denounced long ago.

To constatly deny this is like denying the holocausts. I can't see why we should let the Muslims get away with denying the holocaust of Hindus, but not with denying the holocaust of Jews.

Stop denying history and show me you are a responsible Muslim.

 

[.lava]

I believe that Azakel has a very valid point.

I don't mean to put all Muslims down, but the history of Islam does have dark history.

Suraj tried to point that out, but it seemed that you keep denying that it ever happen. That's the blind spot that even peaceful Muslims have, regarding to their own history.

No. Billions of present Muslims can't be held responsible for terrorism or wars, but it must be acknowledged that Islam does have dark past.

That's what I see in Suraj's posts. He want you to acknowledge that Muslims did invade his country to spread your religion. You may call it liberation, but for the people that Muslim armies have conquered, they don't see that. And that not respecting other religions.

(As you know now, I dislike this term being used in this context.)

dear Gnostic, as i mentioned i do not know Indian history very well. but i know that there are Muslim evil-doers. there were even in time of Mohammad (PBUH). the reason why we keep this discussion going is that Suraj blame Qur'an & Mohammad (PBUH) for it.


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[gnostic]

dear Gnostic, as i mentioned i do not know Indian history very well. but i know that there are Muslim evil-doers. there were even in time of Mohammad (PBUH). the reason why we keep this discussion going is that Suraj blame Qur'an & Mohammad (PBUH) for it.

Well the topic is about idol worship. Both the Bible and Qur'an do have passages where idols should be destroyed. And Hindus being a pagan religion, I sure you can understand that certain passage in the Qur'an would seemingly be harsh. Your interpretation may say that it has to do with Muhammad's time and his conflicts with the pagan Mecca, however others may not interpret these passages in the same way as you do, including your fellow-Muslims.

From what I understand about idols, they are not deites, but images meant to represent the deities. That's 2 different things. They are not actually "idols", but their deities. But they are considered sacred.

Do you not consider your Qur'an to be sacred? Do you not consider some of the mosques to be sacred to Muslims.

 

[.lava]

Nope I am not implicating all Muslims.

you're saying Islam is the source of all terror. what do you think that means? for me defending Islam you called me fascist. now you're saying you are not implicating Muslims. mater of fact this is what you're doing and you're trying to hide your intention.

But what I am saying is that Muslims need to take responsibility for their history

yes you are holding all Muslims responsible for the actions of evil-doers.

and for the hate-doctrine in the Quran which any good and responsible religion would have publically denounced long ago.

there is no hate doctrine. there are commands of God and it is up to each individual to accept or deny.

To constatly deny this is like denying the holocausts.

denying verses of Qur'an while making endless claims about Islam is OK though? and no, i do not deny holocaust.

I can't see why we should let the Muslims get away with denying the holocaust of Hindus, but not with denying the holocaust of Jews.

do you even read my posts or are you drifting with some kind of autopilot? i do not know your history.

Stop denying history and show me you are a responsible Muslim.

you know, i would talk to decent and honest people about wrong doings in the name of Islam. matter of fact i did many times. but it is not honesty you're asking for.


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[Surya Deva]

There you go another justification. You really are doing the equivalent of denying a holocaust.

I honestly do not think you accept that any terrorism done by Islam is wrong. I think you are justifying it constantly. You want to make it seem as if Islam has no dark history and in doing so are trying to make issues like Hindu holocausts look like isolated almost insignificant instances which have nothing to do with Islam. It's like saying the holocausts had nothing to do with the Nazis, just a few bad Nazis.

The fact that you cannot admit the dark history of Islam is proof that you don't accept any mistakes. And that is what is a shame because its only going to reinforce negative stereotypes about your religion and its adherants. By gosh if you are a liberal version of a Muslim, then what is an orthodox Muslim like? We've already had two orthodox Muslims post on this thread to tell us how hated the Pagans are by Allah as proof that idol worship is wrong. Somehow I am guessing that they are more representative.

 

[.lava]

Well the topic is about idol worship. Both the Bible and Qur'an do have passages where idols should be destroyed. And Hindus being a pagan religion, I sure you can understand that certain passage in the Qur'an would seemingly be harsh. Your interpretation may say that it has to do with Muhammad's time and his conflicts with the pagan Mecca, however others may not interpret these passages in the same way as you do, including your fellow-Muslims.

the idea of hell is harsh enough. i am a human and of course it is scary even to think about eternal torment.

i do not have my personal interpretation of Qur'an. but yes time of Mohammad (PBUH) was different. the issue there was Kabbha itself. it was built by Abraham (PBUH) for Allah. in time Islam was forgotten and people put their idols in Kabbha. that's true it was command of God to break those idols within Kabbha. that is a special case. it was not originally built for idols.

look, it is a fact that there are some Muslims who took some verses and build their personal religion onto it. they denied or ignored rest of the book. that's why what they are practicing is not Islam. there've been some Arabs in time of Prophet who looked like Muslims (they claimed to be) but they were really not.

The desert Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more fitted to be ignorant of the limits which God has sent down to His Messenger. But God is Knowing, Wise. (Qur'an, 9:97)

it is also a fact that there are even imams who does not follow commands of God. instead they act like politicians and they do propaganda against non-Muslims. but they do wear as imams and they make speeches in mosques. i have knowledge of Qur'an enough to distinguish between.

[28:41] And We made them (but) imams (religious leaders) inviting to the Fire; and on the Day of Judgment no help shall they find.

3 / AL- `IMRAN - 7: He (Allah) is the one Who has sent the Book down to you. In it are some basic or fundamental verses (of established meaning; closed to doubts or comments), which are (clear and meaningful enough) in UMMUL KITAB (Mother of the Book). Others are allegorical (need explanation for the real meaning; have hidden meaning) verses. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the allegorical part of the Book, wishing to do mischief and interpreting them as they want. However no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are RASIHUN (firmly grounded in knowledge; the owner of RUSUH) say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is sent down from our Lord." None will grasp the Message but ULUL ELBAB (men of understanding; men to whom the secrets of Allah are revealed)


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[Surya Deva]

Lava lets see how many things you can deny:

You already are denying the Hindu holocausts which were more brutal and savage then the Jewish holocausts. You claim you don't know the history, but you can longer claim ignorance, because I have told you. Then you trivialised events where a Muslim ruler killed 20,000 Hindus in cold blood.

You are denying that Islam doesn't contain a hate doctrine and yet I have already shown you all the verses that are hateful, of which one is:

Those who reject Our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Like I said this could easily go into the Nazi manifesto.

Your religion does contain hate doctrines. There are more than 150 verses on killing non believers. I don't know of any other religion which has such a hateful doctrine.

 

[.lava]

There you go another justification. You really are doing the equivalent of denying a holocaust.

denying what? what are you talking about?

I honestly do not think you accept that any terrorism done by Islam is wrong. I think you are justifying it constantly. You want to make it seem as if Islam has no dark history and in doing so are trying to make issues like Hindu holocausts look like isolated almost insignificant instances which have nothing to do with Islam. It's like saying the holocausts had nothing to do with the Nazis, just a few bad Nazis.

terrorism is inhumane altogether. there is nothing that justifies killing unarmed innocent people.

you really do not read my posts, do you?

The fact that you cannot admit the dark history of Islam is proof that you don't accept any mistakes. And that is what is a shame because its only going to reinforce negative stereotypes about your religion and its adherants.

what?

By gosh if you are a liberal version of a Muslim, then what is an orthodox Muslim like?

he would be just like you, Suraj.

We've already had two orthodox Muslims post on this thread to tell us how hated the Pagans are by Allah as proof that idol worship is wrong. Somehow I am guessing that they are more representative.

i believe idol worshiping is wrong, so what? for a idol worshiper what i believe might appear wrong. very normal, we believe in different things. you can't stand diversity, can you? i donot mind what people believe as long as they are peacemakers. love would defeat terror, not your hatred.


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[.lava]

Lava lets see how many things you can deny:

i 'can'....what's that? some kind of permission?

You already are denying the Hindu holocausts which were more brutal and savage then the Jewish holocausts. You claim you don't know the history, but you can longer claim ignorance, because I have told you. Then you trivialised events where a Muslim ruler killed 20,000 Hindus in cold blood.

first of all, Nazi did not just kill Jewish people. they killed many others who were not Jewish.

secondly, i do not know Indian history very well.

sorry for 20.000 people. however i really prefer to focus on present killings like Iraq where over a million got killed and almost every day a few dozens die. but wait, right! they are Muslims.

You are denying that Islam doesn't contain a hate doctrine and yet I have already shown you all the verses that are hateful, of which one is:

is hell a hate doctrine? punishment of God is hate doctrine? if yes, then you know, it is between you and your Rab. even if i wanted (And no, i don't) i could not get involved.

Those who reject Our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

that sounds really scary. i don't wish anyone to get in there and stay for eternity. but as i said before, this not my warning to people. i am just one person and i red this and i obey Allah.

Like I said this could easily go into the Nazi manifesto.

Your religion does contain hate doctrines. There are more than 150 verses on killing non believers. I don't know of any other religion which has such a hateful doctrine.

why do you keep mentioning Nazis?

Islam does not contain hate doctrine. yes, there are many verses about wars. matter of fact there is an entire surah about wars and it is obvious people kill each other in wars.


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[Don Penguinoini]

I think we need to stay on-topic. The thread is about Idol Worship.

 

[blackout]

I say we should now talk about "American Idol".

How many Christians watch American Idol religiously each week.
Never miss it like they never miss church.

Can someone defend this?

Is it an abomination?

 

[Surya Deva]

Lava., I am now being amused by reading your justifications. How you justify terrorism, hate, and eternal damnation and then say "Oh, but it is all inhumane and Allah loves everyone" is actually quite funny. I can imagine if there existed a Nazi bible similar justifications being made by its adherants.

It is interesting how two people can read the same thing and interpret such different things even when it is explicit. It really goes to show what religion does to the thinking faculities of peope....

 

[want to be hindu]

I say we should now talk about "American Idol".

How many Christians watch American Idol religiously each week.
Never miss it like they never miss church.

Can someone defend this?

Is it an abomination?

I agree. many times I find TV to be an abomination. But Obama is not an obamanation.

 

[Jack_Ripper]

I don't understand why people look down on idol-worshippers, isn't it just another kind of worship, just as legitimate as any other?

Well, it's not true. In fact, i feel idol worship is the most convincing form of worship. Almost all the religions we have, do follow idol-worship . It is only the atheist group who may find it illegitimate .

 

[Breathe]

Well, it's not true. In fact, i feel idol worship is the most convincing form of worship. Almost all the religions we have, do follow idol-worship . It is only the atheist group who may find it illegitimate .

I disagree. Many members of the "Abrahamic religions" will also find it illegitimate.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

I disagree. Many members of the "Abrahamic religions" will also find it illegitimate.

sure, I a gree

Qura'an Ch. 2
[130] And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.


[131] Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" he said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."


[132] And this was the Legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Allah).


[133] Were ye witnesses when Death appeared before Jacob? Behold he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, - of Abraham , Ishmael and Isaac, - the One (True) God: and unto Him we have surrendered."

 

[want to be hindu]

In Feb of 2007 the chief Rabbinate of Israel lead by Rabbi Yona Metzeger meet with Hindus Leaders in New Delhi. They were able to issue a 9 point statement of principles that Hindus and Jews have in common. The first issue they were able to get off the table is that of idolatry. Both faiths teach that there is one supreme being who is the ultimate reality. This issue of "Idolatry" is no longer a problem between the Hindu and Jewish faiths. They also said that Hinduism is the only civilization that is immune to Jew hating. From the Hindu we have learned that anti-semitism is not universal. This gives me hope that the other Abrahamic faiths at some point will follow the Jewish lead.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

sure, I a gree

Qura'an Ch. 2
[130] And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.


[131] Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" he said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."


[132] And this was the Legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Allah).


[133] Were ye witnesses when Death appeared before Jacob? Behold he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, - of Abraham , Ishmael and Isaac, - the One (True) God: and unto Him we have surrendered."

No, you are just posting quotes, you are not telling what you are thinking in your actual brain about idol worship.

 

[blackout]

I agree. many times I find TV to be an abomination. But Obama is not an obamanation.

But is it the golden calf on the TV?...
Or the VIEWER, who truly creates the idol.

Golden Calf >> A Little Bull in Sequins.

So Is it worse to BE an idol?
Or to be an idol worshipper.

And can there even BE an idol,
if there are not worshippers to elevate it?

*just call me Idol. :flirt:

go ahead. elevate me.

 

[Darkwater]

:bow: