What is wrong with idol worship?

[blackout]

What about the I-doll (Idol) Miley Circus...
Oops!:areyoucra Cirus.. SireUs!
Hannah Montana Abomination!
plastered all over the Temple Walls of Mart...
and the Sleeping Chambers of young mindless maidens everywhere?
Young I's/eyes... yet to see the light of their OWN day...
Waking up instead to life size cardboard I'm-ages of the teen pop goddess!

And they pay, and register their loyalty and homage
with the Coins of Ceasar....
as they exit the temple gates of Mart
with the graven charms and trinkets of their worship and adoration.

Are they all going to hell?

No... rather...I would say they are all in hell already.

(wOOt! Just wait till Heneni reads that last part! )

 

[want to be hindu]

What about the I-doll (Idol) Miley Circus...
Oops!:areyoucra Cirus.. SireUs!
Hannah Montana Abomination!
plastered all over the Temple Walls of Mart...
and the Sleeping Chambers of young mindless maidens everywhere?
Young I's/eyes... yet to see the light of their OWN day...
Waking up instead to life size cardboard I'm-ages of the teen pop goddess!

And they pay, and register their loyalty and homage
with the Coins of Ceasar....
as they exit the temple gates of Mart
with the graven charms and trinkets of their worship and adoration.

Are they all going to hell?

No... rather...I would say they are all in hell already.

(wOOt! Just wait till Heneni reads that last part! )

Great point and poetic at that ( I wish I was a poet ) How many people complain about idols yet think Tom Cruse is a Great man. Have posters of him In their house and keep up on every detail of his life. OMG Americans are idol worshipers.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

You raised this question of contempt:

You confess you have "weakness" and "bad habits" that require unrelenting work to overcome. I am most interested in knowing what you perceive these faults to be, and what type of "unrelenting" work you are engaged in to overcome them.

Let me guess. You feel alone and confused. You want to feel loved and to be part of something greater than yourself—something beautiful and meaningful. One solution would be to educate yourself in the areas that you lack knowledge and understanding. The downside of this approach is twofold:
1) It really IS challenging, and it really IS work.
2) You may not find the warm fuzzy "answers" that comfort you.

Let's be perfectly clear: You are NOT interested in this approach because you have already made up your mind exactly what it is that you are looking for; it comes wrapped up in a pretty package that offers you all the cozy truths you so sadly need. Not only do you lack the inquisitive mind that a dispassionate quest for knowledge demands, you simply don't have the guts. Yet, with transparent humility, you congratulate yourself for your "hard work", which you claim "is not a pain free process", although you admit that it is "ultimately favouring our end by an infinite margin" (i.e., a sugar-coated world) "but that is testament to me of the love of God more than the greed of man". My my, you are quite the noble one. aren't you?

Yes I do have contempt for your "weakness". It is the same affliction shared by every other "believer".

You take a lazy shortcut to life which fulfills all your wants and needs—a sense of belonging, feeling "special", unconditional love, everlasting life—all the comforts anyone could ever wish for. And you have the audacity to brag that you rise above "the greed of man."

Such lunacy is more than tedious, it truly is contemptible.

I apologise for the lateness of my reply - I have only just come across your post. I must say I am disappointed by your sweeping assumptions about my personal character just because I believe in God, as well as your misrepresentation of my words. On the one hand I want to tell you more about myself so that you can know that I indeed have and exercise "inquisitive mind that a dispassionate quest for knowledge demands", but the other hand tells me that since you are given to making such childishly sweeping remarks it would probably be a waste of my time.

But hell, I have little better to do this evening.

I have 6 A-Levels, including all three sciences and mathematics at grade A. I also have Advanced Extension Award merits in both Chemistry and Physics. I successfully passed the first year of medical school, before having to take a year out due to personal circumstances. Currently, I am in a full time job to pay my way through the year whilst I wait for my circumstances to change so I can return to study medicine next year. Of the many books on science, religion and philosophy I own, 5 of which are by Richard Dawkins (whom, I cheekily assume, you are a big fan given your writing style) and several are written by those critical of my LDS faith. I enjoy reading about and debating about religion, and I do have the guts to consider opposing and alternate views.

On the topic we were actually talking about, which was self betterment through God, I do not consider it to be a shortcut to a better me, a quest for easy answers, or a quest for comfort. When I speak of hard and relentless work, that is exactly what I mean. I study hard and ponder upon these things often. As far as my bad habits go, I am hardly going to list them all for your scrutiny, but when I speak of working on them, that is exactly what I mean.

And just one last point on your accusation of greed, which I still maintain is a distorsion of the charitable sentiment of the atonment which is central to our ability to repent and improve ourselves in Christian theology. I suppose your cynical viewpoint on this is immovable, but I assume you would not consider the recipients of charity to be greedy, even though they get something for nothing? This is how I view the atonement.

 

[Surya Deva]

.Lava save it,

The above verse is preaching hate against idol worshippers and a Muslim poster is posting it here as proof of why Idol worship is wrong. Earlier another Muslim poster posted a Hadith to support why Idol worship is wrong showing a Muslim ridiculing Pagans and smashing their statues.

You cannot hide from it now. Islam preaches hatred for idol worshippers for their beliefs. It is blatant for everyone to see.

 

[Surya Deva]

Seriously, how many pagan religions do you know today that ask people to go on a killing and raping rampage?

I think know every little about religion that you have no idea what they believe?

Buddhism and Taoism think and believe in non-violent as the way of life.

Druidism think that life is too precious, whether it be humans, animals or plant life.

It is more than I can say about Islam. They had built their empires on conquests, just like any empires, with force of arms.

Even Muhammad is not immune to worldly power.

Even when Banu Qurayza (Jewish tribe) surrendered to him after the short siege, the majority of men were beheaded, except those who converted to Islam, and the rest, women and children, were sold into slavery. Today, historians have doubts about authenticity of any such compact made between Muhammad and the Banu Qurayza.

These Jews already believe in the one god, so why are only the men that converted were spared from beheading.

We only hear one side of this tale that the Qurayza had betrayed the treaty they made with Muhammad. We have no record if what happened to be true from any surviving Jew.

A large part of Muhammad's account is one-sided.

Yep, any objective historian looking at both sides can clearly see who is the aggressor and who is the persecuted here. When it is blatantly being said that idol worshippers are dirty and should burn in hell, kill and maim them, slaughter them. It is very clear what the doctrine is.

The Pagans, like the Hindus, were killed and raped for their beliefs. It is blatant for any impartial person to see. Those who are trying to justify this.... well it's a huge shame really considering what their religion is being accused of today.

 

[.lava]

.Lava save it,

The above verse is preaching hate against idol worshippers and a Muslim poster is posting it here as proof of why Idol worship is wrong. Earlier another Muslim poster posted a Hadith to support why Idol worship is wrong showing a Muslim ridiculing Pagans and smashing their statues.

You cannot hide from it now. Islam preaches hatred for idol worshippers for their beliefs. It is blatant for everyone to see.

hide what? save what? that verse is not said by a person. it is what God says. it is nobody's business to punish people for their beliefs. everyone on earth has right to believe in anything he wants and so am i. we are equal. i do not see any reason why i should hide this fact of equality? God let them be and we are not suppose to stop it or fight it because God gives them permission to be. this is not about being right or wrong. this is about justice as each person has his own free will. as God is not weak at all, if God wanted to do so, it has power to stop idol worshippers. what's there you don't get?


.

 

[Surya Deva]

it is nobody's business to punish people for their beliefs. everyone on earth has right to believe in anything he wants and so am i. we are equal. i do not see any reason why i should hide this fact of equality? God let them be and we are not suppose to stop it or fight it because God gives them permission to be. this is not about being right or wrong. this is about justice as each person has his own free will. as God is not weak at all, if God wanted to do so, it has power to stop idol worshippers. what's there you don't get?

Right, I agree with you.

But that is not what your Quran says I'm afraid. Please don't pretend it does because the quran is widely available and published we know what it says.

 

[.lava]

Right, I agree with you.

But that is not what your Quran says I'm afraid. Please don't pretend it does because the quran is widely available and published we know what it says.

agree with me then you agree with Sharia written in Qur'an. you keep attacking Islam by abusing verses that revealed in war that was actually started by some of disbelievers, not Muslims. not every disbeliever joined that war. Muslims and Pagans lived in peace together. but when those people who tortured and killed unarmed Muslim men and women started a war, they fought back. still they did not fight or hurt the ones who were peaceful.

God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you over religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. God merely forbids you from taking as friends those who have fought you over religion and driven you from your homes and who supported your expulsion. Any who take them as friends are wrongdoers. (Qur'an, 60:8-9)

you keep turn this into an attack against Islam. you keep ignoring the verses i send to show it is not like as you describe. free will is given to each person so he can make his own decision, not to get him killed when he uses his tool.

50/Qâf – 45:
We know best what they say. And you are not the one to force them (to Belief). But warn by the Qur’ân; him who fears My Threat.


10/Yûnus – 99:
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed (that is, would have comprehended reaching Allah by heart), all of them together. So, will you then compel mankind, until they become believers?


33/Al-Ahzâb – 45, 46:
O Prophet! Verily, We have sent you as a witness and a bearer of glad tidings and a warner, and as one who invites to Allah by His Leave, and as a lamp spreading light.


2/Al-Baqarah – 256:
There is no compulsion in religion...




.

 

[Surya Deva]

you keep turn this into an attack against Islam. you keep ignoring the verses i send to show it is not like as you describe. free will is given to each person so he can make his own decision, not to get him killed when he uses his tool.

And you keep ignoring the verses which clearly show injunctions for killing non-beleivers, idol worshippers that are being posted by Muslims in this thread themselves.

I think you are reading the Quran selectively. It is obvious to anybody reading those verses what they are saying.

 

[.lava]

And you keep ignoring the verses which clearly show injunctions for killing non-beleivers, idol worshippers that are being posted by Muslims in this thread themselves.

I think you are reading the Quran selectively. It is obvious to anybody reading those verses what they are saying.

no, i do not read Qur'an selectively. all of them is one and whole of it means something. the verses you 'selectively' read and show are verses revealed during war and they are about war. those wars has started by disbelievers. they attacked people just because they were Muslims. it did not happen other way around. if Muslims were supposed to kill people just because they rejected Islam then God would not command Muslims to protect them.

If any of the associators ask you for protection, give them protection until they have heard the words of God. Then convey them to a place where they are safe…. As long as they are straight with you, be straight with them. God loves those who do their duty. (Qur'an, 9:6-7)


.

 

[Surya Deva]

It happened the other way round Lava. Who are you kidding yourself, me or others here? You cannot kid professional historians. We know what happened. The shame is you are justifying it, and that is not the message the world wants to hear today. I worry for your people, I really do.

 

[.lava]

It happened the other way round Lava. Who are you kidding yourself, me or others here? You cannot kid professional historians. We know what happened. The shame is you are justifying it, and that is not the message the world wants to hear today. I worry for your people, I really do.

that's pure slander. it is significant that you, once more, ignored verses that prove you are spreading lies about Islam. for anyone who cares here is a link for history;

The first battle of Islam at Badr, Holy War, Muslim Jihad, Victory of Islam

there you can find all battles of Islam, with maps, its reasons and strategies and everything.


.

 

[Surya Deva]

I am even going to bother anymore Lava. When it is so explicit and right in front of everybody to see and still you refuse to acknowledge it, then one clearly knows what's going on.

Anyway one word: Karma.

 

[.lava]

I am even going to bother anymore Lava. When it is so explicit and right in front of everybody to see and still you refuse to acknowledge it, then one clearly knows what's going on.

Anyway one word: Karma.

i would not acknowledge your lies and slanders. that's what's going on. go ahead, don't bother anymore. i was not for you in the first place.


.

 

[gnostic]

no, i do not read Qur'an selectively. all of them is one and whole of it means something. the verses you 'selectively' read and show are verses revealed during war and they are about war. those wars has started by disbelievers. they attacked people just because they were Muslims. it did not happen other way around. if Muslims were supposed to kill people just because they rejected Islam then God would not command Muslims to protect them.

Look at this way.

If the Qur'an only refer to the pagans who attack Muslims and the Muslims defend themselves, then that's fine. Except for the fact, that Qur'anic verses make no reference as to precisely who precisely attack them, for example pagan Arabs or pagan Meccans. But the Qur'an does say that at all. All it say to attack all disbelievers and idol-worshippers.

We only have your interpretation of the text that it was pagan Meccans, but that's not what it say. And if your God truly wrote it, then it should have been specific with the content and context. It really should have left out those passages altogether, or be more precise. By keeping that passages there in the Qur'an, it seemed to validate and justify that Muslims killing any pagan at any time and place. You verse basically give Muslims license-to-kill any non-Muslims.

 

[Surya Deva]

Fair enough Lava. I think we'll just let the future play out then if this is the choice its people has made - justifying a horrific history and doctrine. The world is listening. Like I said I really feel for your people. I am sure most of them are nice people, but sadly they are being represented by people who are highlighting all the wrong aspects of their religion. A justification for terrorism is a justification for terrorism - whichever way you spin it.

Millions of Pagans and 80 million Hindus were slaughtered in cold blood by your religion. History is not going to forget this. It is the most brutal genocide in the history of the world. And it dismays me anyone in this modern world would support it. Talk about reinforcing stereotypes.

 

[Surya Deva]

By keeping that passages there in the Qur'an, it seemed to validate and justify that Muslims killing any pagan at any time and place. You verse basically give Muslims license-to-kill any non-Muslims.

From Wiki:


Records from the campaign recorded in the Chach Nama record temple demolitions, and mass executions of resisting Sindhi forces and the enslavement of their dependents. This action was particularly extensive in Debal, of which Qasim is reported to have been under orders to make an example of while freeing both the captured women and the prisoners of a previous failed expedition. Bin Qasim then enlisted the support of the local Jat, Meds and Bhutto tribes and began the process of subduing and conquering the countryside. The capture of towns was also usually accomplished by means of a treaty with a party from among his "enemy", who were then extended special privileges and material rewards.[6] However, his superior Hajjaj reportedly objected to his method by saying that it would make him look weak and advocated a more hardline military strategy:[7]

“It appears from your letter that all the rules made by you for the comfort and convenience of your men are strictly in accordance with religious law. But the way of granting pardon prescribed by the law is different from the one adopted by you, for you go on giving pardon to everybody, high or low, without any discretion between a friend and a foe. The great God says in the Koran [47.4]: "0 True believers, when you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads." The above command of the Great God is a great command and must be respected and followed. You should not be so fond of showing mercy, as to nullify the virtue of the act. Henceforth grant pardon to no one of the enemy and spare none of them, or else all will consider you a weak-minded man.

 

[Surya Deva]

Cont.

Mahmud of Ghazni was an Afghan Sultan who invaded the Indian subcontinent during the early 11th century. His campaigns across the gangetic plains are often cited for their iconoclastic plundering and destruction of Hindu temples such as those at Mathura and he looked upon their destruction as an act of "jihad".[11]
Pradyumna Prasad Karan further describes Mahmud's invasion as one in which he put "thousands of Hindu's to the sword" and made a pastime of "raising pyramids of the skulls of the infidels".[12][13]

In the Taj-ul-Ma’asir by Hassn Nizam-i-Naishapuri, it is stated that when Qutb-ul- Din Aibak (1194-1210) conquered Meerat, he demolished all the Hindu temples of the city and erected mosques on their sites. In the city of Aligarh, he converted Hindu inhabitants to Islam by the sword and beheaded all those who adhered to their own religion. The Persian historian Wassaf writes in his Tazjiyat-ul-Amsar wa Tajriyat ul Asar that when Alaul-Din Khilji (1295-1316) captured the city of Kambayat at the head of the gulf ofCambay, he killed the adult male Hindu inhabitants for the glory of Islam, set flowing rivers of blood, sent the women of the country with all their gold, silver, and jewels, to his own home, and made about twentv thousand maidens his private slaves. Ala-ul-Din once asked his Qazi’, what was the Mohammadan law prescribed for the Hindus. The Qazi replied, “Hindus are like the mud; if silver is demanded from them, they must with the greatest humility offer gold. If a Mohammadan desire to spit into a Hindu’s mouth, the Hindu should open it wide for the purpose. God created the Hindus to be slaves of the Mohammadans. The Prophet hath ordained that, if the Hindus do not accept Islam, they should be imprisoned, tortured, finally put to death, and their property confiscated

 

[Surya Deva]

Timur himself recorded the invasions in his memoirs, collectively known as Tuzk-i-Timuri.[21] In them, he vividly described the massacre at Delhi:

In a short space of time all the people in the [Delhi] fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground....All these infidel Hindus were slain, their women and children, and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors. I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death.

One hundred thousand infidels, impious idolators, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiruddin Umar, a counselor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives....on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and enemies of Islam at liberty...no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword.[22]
​

 

[.lava]

Look at this way.

If the Qur'an only refer to the pagans who attack Muslims and the Muslims defend themselves, then that's fine. Except for the fact, that Qur'anic verses make no reference as to precisely who precisely attack them, for example pagan Arabs or pagan Meccans. But the Qur'an does say that at all. All it say to attack all disbelievers and idol-worshippers.

We only have your interpretation of the text that it was pagan Meccans, but that's not what it say. And if your God truly wrote it, then it should have been specific with the content and context. It really should have left out those passages altogether, or be more precise. By keeping that passages there in the Qur'an, it seemed to validate and justify that Muslims killing any pagan at any time and place. You verse basically give Muslims license-to-kill any non-Muslims.

why do you think all of those wars occurred around Madina, but not Macca? all the people who believed message of Mohammad (PBUH) had to leave their homes and escape from torment of some disbelievers. they escaped to Madina. those disbelievers followed them with an army to Madina. that's why wars occurred near Madina.

Qur'an gives descriptions of people. matter of fact Qur'an gives very clear reference about who they should fight as i said previous posts. if you did not see them that is OK, i send again;

God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you over religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. God merely forbids you from taking as friends those who have fought you over religion and driven you from your homes and who supported your expulsion. Any who take them as friends are wrongdoers. (Qur'an, 60:8-9)


this verse clearly states that Muslims can only fight back to those who fight them. there are Muslims who do not care for commands of God and they do kill innocent people. Qur'an tells about them too. the point some people miss or even volunteerly ignore is that i can not defend all the Muslims all over the globe. there are evil people who commit crimes. there is no doubt about that and i would never defend them just because they name themselves Muslims. they are mischeif maker liars. that's another issue and i am here if you wish to hear what God says about them. blaming Islam for the actions of those who is actually satanic is very unfair because as a Muslim i practice this religion and i was never taught 'legal violance'. a real Muslim would not be the one who breaks peace. that is very clear.



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