YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
You don't seriously want to "go there", do you? Even for his time he was not extraordinary.
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What is wrong with Prophet Muhammad’s morality?
- Thread starter sovietchild
- Start date
Have you ever tried it? Jeebers! Having one wife is a total handful. Two is madness. Three is suicidal! But four?
I apologize for being a little obtuse, but I don't understand. If there are 100 men and 400 women in a population; and monogamy was the rule then the reproduction rate would be 1/4 as 300 would not be reproducing.
In contrast with 4 wives to each male, all 400 would be reproducing. So the reproduction rate would be 4x higher
Am I missing something?
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
What about the right to have sex with the slave women that your right hand possesses?
That is not equality. That is rape of slaves. Definitely not moral.
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Actually I think that was the law under Justinian code in the Byzantine Empire too. So very much the rule at the time, not just among Arabs of Mecca
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The Hebrew did it too. It is in the Bible. And it was rape for all of them that did it.
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Do you mean Hagar was raped?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Very good, @Ingledsva
Muhammad created a heavenly sanctioned rape culture unlike any the world had seen before or since.
sovietchild
Well-Known Member
Didn't he unite Arabian people?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
It's not too hard too convince a bunch of males to adopt a system where god allows them to have sex with their slaves. No wonder they thought this guy was great.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I personally believe he was a schizophrenic, suffered from OCD, was a narcissistic, hated women, and also suffered from napoleon complex, for he was in fact a midget.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I mean there are verses allowing it. Also, concubines are sex slaves.
Hagar would fall under this as she was a slave woman given to Abraham for sex.
Gen 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her female slave the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his woman.
And she is nothing more as we have this verse -
Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this slave-woman and her son: for the son of this slave-woman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
And they gave the raped slave, and the resulting child the death boot.
Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
Thoughtful after rape and a baby, - yes?
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Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Were you alive then? If not, neither, really, do you.
Hanging out in the desert is a good way to start thinking lots of random things.
Then they aren't slaves. Duh.
Freedom for all? True, he was better at it than the Christians at the time, but still ... again, can't have slaves if everyone is equal.
And, like Christianity before him, make his OWN tourist traps instead.
Why not be satisfied sexually with the wife you have? And if all are equal, women wouldn't need to live with men to survive, because they could just go get a job and support themselves.
We are not brood mares. Again, this is silly considering you complain Muhammad was all for equality.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
How many wives have you had all at once ?.
so she was raped by Abraham and his wife Sarah who gave Hagar to him?
So are your sympathies with the victim or the rapist?
Indian Iconoclast
Member
Morality? Sanity? Does the world not know of him? What was he known for?
Well here are my answers not guided by malice and ridicule and neither by hearsay. I write from documented history and Arabic/Latin chronicles of his times and later day's proved scholastic research. I shall give suggested readings and references at the end.
Of all major miseries and calamities that have come and struck the civilized world like cholera, malaria and Bubonic plague and genocide causing religious fanaticism and bigotry in the past 20 centuries, the worst that hit the earth in the Circa 610 AD was the mental culmination of a 40 year old schizophrenic monster born in Mecca of present Saudi Arabia who in his ever increasing urge to be recognized as a prophet from and in the sequence the Jewish and Christian recognized and revered Prophets line of Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus Christ, used treachery, Arabic clan hood fraternity, fallacy and most of all fear and torturous cruelty on his neighborhood people his city and when expelled from his city on the people of the city that had offered him and his cohorts shelter the same way that Europe grants refuge to the millions of the Peaceful coming across the Mediterranean sea, and the Jewish and Christians by hooliganism, plunder and riots, to earn that ever quested recognition as the true messenger of the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham. Jacob, Moses and Jesus Christ son of Mary. Those that agreed with the false propaganda that God used to send him personal messages, that he called the words of God and the Lectures claiming him to be not only a true prophet of the likes of Abraham, Moses and Jesus but the best and the last among all of these that had been physically lifted to the alter of the Almighty Creator of all mankind where non but Adam had put his feet and had been the prayer leader to God in a heavenly congregation of the prophets of the past like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob (Israel), Moses and Jesus Christ son of Mary and all other lesser prophets of the Old Testament thrown in!
That schizophrenic wannabe charlatan was Muhammad son of Abdullah grandson of a Mecca pagan temple priest Abdul Muttalib whose clan of the Quraish used to maintain the temple of Kaaba in Mecca and earned their livelihood mainly from the pagan clans of nomadic Arabs ranging from Sudan to Egypt and Mesopotamia of the Middle East visiting Kaaba as their annual pilgrimage and sacrificing herd animals before their clan gods and deities there. Every clan had its own deity to worship but all clans paid alms and charity and sacrificed animals to the clan of Quraish who were Imams (Al Aaimmeh) that is prayer leaders within the temple of Kaaba.
Muhammad had wished to gain full control of this pagan temple that had so many deities. He was impressed by the neighborhood synagogues and churches where Jews and converted Christian Arabs used to worship a single God albeit that Christians believed Jesus (whose graven image on the cross was the sanctum sanctorum in the churches) to be a part of Godhood. He used to befriend Cohens and Rabbis and listen to the scriptures of the Holy Bible and Jewish Torah and Talmud. He then after gaining much insight in the Bible and the Old Testament, when he was 40 years old, became bold enough to openly propagate his false dogmas of his attaining prophet hood and being appointed by the Almighty Lord of the Universe as His last and greatest messenger with his own Bible in the form of the Quran (Lectures). The tenets were the belief in One God of the Bible who now was Muhammad's most benevolent guide, the messenger hood of Muhammad, the belief in the hereafter and the Day of Judgement.
The Bible and the Jewish scriptures were to be forsaken by his followings and to be forgotten by the Jews and Christians willing to convert to his newly created religion called The Peace! The followers were to be known as the Peaceful Believers! Those that agreed and became a part of his nexus had claimed his doctrines to be true had to pray in his his style five times to God asking among other things the same bliss and sanctity that were conferred upon Abraham and his kin to be conferred on Muhammad and his kin, to visit the Mecca as a pilgrimage by their erstwhile custom but to pray and sacrifice their herd animals in the new way that Muhammad had to teach, and most importantly to pay tax (Zakaat) to the coffers of Muhammad's new religious establishment. Those that did not had to face battle (Jihad) with the Peaceful and if defeated, be enslaved with wife and children and only allowed to live if found agreeable to convert to Peace. Conversion though granted a lease of life, did not grant freedom from slavery by generations unless paid for to the masters.
This charlatan had claimed and to this very day it is believed to be true by the Peaceful, that he had split the full moon in mid sky by merely pointing at it with his forefinger and let the two halves drop to his left and right horizons to remain suspended till he wanted! See the Lectures on the verse of the Splitting of the Moon!
This sex hungry but shrewd Arab chose to marry for the first time when he was 25 years old to marry a wealthy 40 year old widow who had been twice widowed before. Reason? It requires good funds and a docile aged life partner enjoying sexual ecstasies from a virile much younger mate to have as a wife who not only will believe in his concocted revelations from God but be willing to fund his quest with money and clan support. He had not married again till her death and had married thereafter about 12 times, women ranging in age from 9 to 55 till he died in the age of 63. Some gave birth to his infant sons who did not make it beyond infancy. Some never could conceive, like Aaisheh daughter of his companion Abu Bakar, but had to live unmarried till her end because she was Muhammad's wife and Muhammad's wife were ordained to be the Mothers of the Faithful in the Lectures. The same Lectures that had decreed Muhammad not to be a father of any faithful! Muhammad not the father but his wives all mothers by holy decree! It is easy for the rest of the world to form the opinion on the legitimacy of the spiritual of-springs!
Muhammad's chief antagonists were the Jews and the Christians. His Lectures had earlier prohibited marriages between non Peaceful children and the Peaceful. That later on got to be changed when the captured beautiful widow of a Jewish slain chieftain fell in his hands as a booty and spoil. She was the prize catch and his hooligans had presented her to him as a slave. He showed his false magnanimity to the Jews as accepting her as a wife and not a slave to give her equal conjugal status and a holy revelation soon followed giving him this permission to marry a daughter of Those of the Books (collectively referring to Jews and Christians) which was a transgression from the earlier command of the Lectures. This continues till date. The Peaceful marry Jewish and Christian women when the good opportunity arrives but absolutely hate the idea of giving their daughters in marriage to Jews and Christians. The Lectures from his Lord strictly forbid the Peaceful and Faithful to befriend the Jews and Christians!
Muhammad just could not swallow the popularity of the Christian faith on the count of the supreme sacrifice by Jesus Christ son of Mary by the agonizing and slow death on the cross at Jerusalem. That sacrifice was the keystone of Jesus's message of love to the people of the world suffering slavery and atrocities of the Roman Empire that he the son of man and son of the Heavenly Father had chosen to be humiliated and crucified to redeem mankind's trespasses and to set an example of non violent struggle and up rise against tyranny. On his part Muhammad had only suffered to be mobbed by stone pelting youth at one time and endless loss of his kinsmen in his battles with his enemies. He could have never attained martyrdom in his life! Could he?
So then he went on to weave his lies of prophesies that said Jesus son of Mary had never died on the cross. His Lectures also said so. The Lectures talk of a mistaken identity being crucified at Mount Golgotha in Jerusalem by the Roman soldiers and not Jesus the Christ! The Lectures have naught to say anything on the sufferings of Jesus Christ before being presented to Pontius Pilate and after before Crucifixion. What Muhammad the charlatan had to say was that "He (Jesus son of Mary) now raised to the heavens by God shall descend upon this earth after my passing away! He shall embrace my faith and act as my deputy and live at Medina and marry and sire children. He shall vanquish the emissary of Satan called the Dajjaal who shall rise in those days and after this victory shall live to die at Medina and be buried at my feet!"
Within a span of fifty years of his death his sons in law were cruelly put to death by the strict followers of his faith, the Peaceful! His elder son in law to whom two of his daughters were married in succession was butchered while reading the Lectures. Not by the Jews or Christians who were his enemies! But by his own Peaceful Arabs! His youngest and beloved son in law was stabbed to to death by another Peaceful of the sect called Khaaijeen who had dejected the caliph hood of both Ali and Muaviya the contenders for the seat after the murder of Uthman Ibn Affan.
Within 50 years of the killing of Ali his beloved nephew and son in law, the son of Ali, Hussain and his entire family barring a young son and two daughters were systematically misled out of Medina and besieged at the wilderness of Karbala at Iraq by the same Peaceful band of Faithfuls and under the command of the Syrian chieftain Umar Ibn Saad, mercilessly slaughtered them including Hussain's six month old tiny wee son whose thirst for a drop of water was not quenched as pleaded by him. The Peaceful chose to pierce that tiny throat with an arrow instead! Excellent show of the Arabic marksmanship! All by the Peaceful who then and till now do not complete their mandated and other prayers without a special plea that God may grant Muhammad and his progeny the same bliss and sanctity as was granted to Abraham and his line!
Those were things that had happened about 1500 years away. What is the relevance of that charlatan mobster's self styled prophet hood and religion today?
Today the religion called Peace is the other name of terrorism and ruthless torture and mass murders all over the world. It started with killing of innocent Jews at the Olympics and in the years culminated to the 9/11 in the USA. It has not stopped since then, Paris, Bombay, Nairobi, Kabul, Iraq and the list goes on. Europe is bearing the unjust burden of Peaceful from Syria where the Peaceful fight tooth and nail among themselves on sectarian enmity! The so called Peaceful refugees fed and sheltered by the Christians form secret leagues and plan to slit innocent throats of their hosts bay taking them hostages. That is the line of thought of Muhammad showing its course! Your trusted guest that has sought refuge in your kind and Christian nation who may appear to be a good and sociable neighbor for a while may surprise you some day by taking you hostage!
References: The Lectures (The authorized edition by the 3rd Caliph Uthman Ibn Affan), The Six Books of Tradition (Sihaah al Sitteh), Taareekh Ul Islam and its Muqaddimeh by Ibn Khaldoon. Seerat Un Nabi by Ibn Hishham and modern history of Islam by world wide scholars.
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This is true but freedom for all doesn't mean freedom to wage war on the Muslim community without consequence. From what I understand, context is important and the Umayyad sources aren't reliable. However,
These weren't slaves bought and sold on the regular open slave markets. They also weren't slaves because of the color of their skin. They also weren't slaves without rights to inherit etc. So a very different form of slavery than the race based horror witnessed by the west.
These were essentially prisoners of war who became captives after waging war and were being held for ransom with several ways to earn their freedom. These were prisoners rather than what we consider slaves, who weren't kept in jails, prisons or dungeons. They were kept in homes.
MP I believe was generally trying to find ways to compensate the captor for housing the captives aka slave. For example by giving the captive slave the option to earn her freedom by teaching an ex number of people to read and write. Or other ways of paying the captor to earn their feeedom. Also by encouraging wealthy members of society to pay for the freedom of these captives etc.
Secondly there were rules on housing, feeding and clothing slaves in the same way as the masters. Also, the captor wasn't allowed to abuse his captives. So again this was nt the classic slave and master institution .
Finally, these slaves could have inheritances with which they could buy their own freedom as well as the freedom of their loved ones, parents, siblings and others. So it wasn't perpetual slavery for the color of one's skin etc. If the master decided to have sex with a captive it would be at a huge financial cost. The child born from such a relationship would inherit an equal share as the children from the free wives. In some cases the mother would immediately gain freedom. At the very least this child could buy his family's freedom once he acquired his inheritance etc.
So yes it is called slavery, but the institution was very different than slavery in the west. Many of these slaves earned their freedoms and eventually were given the social opportunities to become rulers etc. In contrast how many Africans became senators or presidents in the Americas? How many large plantations in the south were inherited by slaves? Do you see the difference?
Now this doesn't mean that things were perfect in the Islamic world under the Umayyads and others. Some of these were criminal minded sick people who distorted and changed accounts so they could humiliate abuse rob and loot people and conquer the surrounding lands. However if you want to see the other face of Islam one should look at Ethiopia and the Axumite empire to see that what MP taught wasn't what the Umayyads practiced
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Robert Landbeck
Member
The whole of religious history is written in blood. And the problem with Muslim morality is the same as with all morality both secular and religious. What ever moral relativity exists between them, there is no 'morality' that exists from history or tradition, with the authority to take mankind off the slippery slope of its own self made hell. It is for that reason, I do not regard any existing religious claim as being of God.
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
So to sum up: 'Yes, Muslim societies engaged in slavery. But the slavery we inflicted on people wasn't nearly as cruel as the slavery inflicted by those immoral non-Muslims so that makes ours okay.'
Good account. Although I would add that most sane moral people of the Islamic faith discount the accounts by scholars of the sick Umayyads for the same reasons that you most eloquently described such as they killed the children of the Rashidun, companions of MP and family of MP. Also because the parents of the Umayyads accepted Islam at a very late stage, under less than ideal circumstances after being defeated after leading a life of violently resisting and plotting to assassinate MP and his followers. It would be no different than reading accounts of WW II about the Allied forces authored by the children of Hitler if they had become leaders of the free world, after the Allied forces had decided to forgive Hitler and his companions as long as they promised to be good in the future. Then they decided to kill the children of the leaders of the Allied forces, muzzle dissent and impose hereditary control over the world.
Similarly the Latin sources can't be trusted anymore than Japanese accounts about the Allied Forces. The Latins were at war with MP.
If any place, we should look to the Axumite Empire on how Islam should be spread. It's ruler was a close companion of MP and used MPs direct guidance to spread Islam in his empire
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