What is wrong with religion?

[Xbones]

First off, were the words fools used? If they were then they imply that someone is ignorant. And to have a solid truth you can have no ignorants. There are many ignorants in this world and religion only makes those people more ignorant. To believe somthing that is not tangable but what you can cast your will. Is utter wrong.

 

[namguy]

I met alot of people who don't believe in God, and when i engage in a discussuin with them about religion, they jump into conclusions saying that religion is the source of evil in the world and they start giving me some examples.

I think that what they saw about what religion's influnce on people did was not quite accurate, because people *used* religion to gain power, money and more land, because human beings found out that religion is the most effective tool in order to control their nation. Nevertheless, just because someone used fire to burn buildings so that doesn't mean fire is no longer a source of light, heat, and feeling warm.

The question which is begging to be answered now is, as we can see that religion "in general" is not the source of evil and human beings just used it in the wrong way, so then, what's wrong with religion?

"Religion's" - I may be spliting hairs here but religions as such follow doctrines, doctrines can be good if, and only if they follow the Bible (KJV) but rarely do they.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Religion's" - I may be spliting hairs here but religions as such follow doctrines, doctrines can be good if, and only if they follow the Bible (KJV) but rarely do they.

Because the Bible's not the same if it's not in the original 17th-Century English?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Alrighty then. The First Crusade was undertaken by Muslims when they captured the Holy Land along with all of Christianity's sacred places. Jerusalem fell to the Muslim hordes under Caliph Omar in A.D. 637, exactly 15 years after the beginning of Islam. The Muslims traveled with the scimitar (sword) and in many cases, they gave people two choices: convert or die.

You forgot the essential 2 other choices, pay the jizyah, or leave.

They captured the Holy Land, Bethlehem, the place of Christ's birth, Galilee, where He ministered, Calvary, where He suffered and died, and the Holy Sepulchre, where He was buried and from which He rose. Over the years some thirty thousand Christian churches or other Christian buildings in that area were destroyed by the Muslims or were converted into mosques. When the order went out to destroy the church of the Holy Sepulchre, Christians in Europe reacted by organizing their own Crusade, the Second Crusade, really, to reclaim Chriostianity's holy places.

I asked you about Omar did he order churches to be burned, No because he was following the truth of Islam. Islam does not allow for muslims to do this. Now have their been muslim rulers guilty of this. Yes of course. But it does not excape the fact that this is not apart of command of the religion.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the Crusades. Many terrible things were done on both sides, but isn't it interesting that we never hear something like this:

"General Douglas MacArthur and the Allied Forces held a crusade against the Phillipines and invaded those islands, driving out the people. Many thousands of lives were lost, and much property was destroyed. Terrible, terrible, terrible. He even said he was going to do it when he announced, 'I shall return.' Remember that?"

The story about the Philippines makes a lot more sense when put into perspective. The Japanese, who were driven out of those islands, had themselves invaded and conquered that land some years before. The U.S. and other allies restored the Philippines to their proper owners.

Again, I do not defend the Crusades, but it is only intellectually honest to place them in their historical context. The Christian Crusade was, in historical fact, a response to the Muslim Crusade, but how many times do you ever hear anyone talking about the Muslim Crusades? A little balance is needed for clearer understanding.
Skeptics Answered, D. James Kennedy, p.115-116.

What does this have to do with how Omar conquered Jerusalem. What was the edict he gave about what to do with the christians living there. What all this other stuff has to do with Omar I do not know?

 

[Booko]

Because the Bible's not the same if it's not in the original 17th-Century English?

As penned by Christ Himself.

 

[Booko]

What does this have to do with how Omar conquered Jerusalem. What was the edict he gave about what to do with the christians living there. What all this other stuff has to do with Omar I do not know?

Given the way that Omar captured Jerusalem and the infamous sack of Jerusalem when the Crusaders retook it, I'll take Omar's version, thanks.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Are you really that naive?

Are you enough to believe that there was no hidden agenda for going into the middle east.

The war in Afghanistan with the Russians had nothing to do with oil in Afghanistan.[/quote] I never said it did. I have said that the US occupation of Afganistan was about oil and drugs. As was vietnam.

The Russians and US have been cold war enemies for decades. Both sides have always been supplying the other side with weapons who are in war. Of course, the US would supply Afghans with weapons, to fight the Russians. The Russians had supplied weapons to Koreans and Viets, and Cubans with US war on these soils.

that is not the point of what me and you were discussing. The issue is not why you think they got the weapons but as I said earlier their was always a hidden agenda whether it was for oil, drugs, or to place a stategic military base in that country for it is funny America has military bases all over the globe in other countries yet no one has them here.

Also, I have never said that US hadn't supplied the Afghans during Afghan-Russian war. When did I said anything that they didn't? I have never said anything like that the Americans weren't involved. I know about this.

You are putting words in my mouth.

Well if you know it state it and stop tring to make it sound like I was saying something other then that.

The Americans and Russians call it keeping a balance. I call it hypocritical bull. Just as I think the US invasion in Iraq to be nothing more than hypocritical bull.

I agree so now that that has been established lets look at what is the bull exactly? What lie was perpetuated and what is really going on now is what should be looked at.

Pipelines, or no pipelines. It still means that Afghanistan didn't have their own oil. So you are still wrong about them fighting for oil.

Uh, the pipeline runs through Afganistan to get to the oil in the Caspien sea. And in order to run a pipeline through a country if they themselves are not sponsoring the pipeline then you have to either get permission, which they did not or remove those who will not allow you to do so, which they did.

Again. You are ignoring that the Iraqis are killing Iraqis. There would be bloodshed with or without Americans on these.

As told by our media who lies everyday but what about the special forces groups who dress up as muslims blowing up things causing more strife in the area. Can this be denied when some where actually caught red handed and then our respective governments instead of putting them on trial for treason breaks them out of jail.

You are ignoring the political reality that Sunni are killing Shiites and vice versa.

You are ignoring the fact that America and its Allies, those who support the UN, CFR, The tri laterals etc. have no intention of leaving and will use all the resources of each other to carry on with it. Why are you ignoring the fact that America went over there on a LIE. They had weapons of mass destruction as they said so we go over there to take them. there were no WOMD. So why are we there, and in a land where the people did not even ask you to come. Let stop ignoring the political reality that America has sent secret op groups over there who were caught mind you dressed up as muslims with bombs in a car that was supposed to carry out some car bomb attack on a proposed target. Let us not forget that the number of suicide bombings were very minimal I mean very minimal before they occupation and now it is an everyday thing and on a grand scale. Let up not ignore the fact that the media lies and is supported by the military industrial complex and puts whatever spin on these things they want. Let us not ever forget the fact that our government leaders sent over 4000 people over to iraq to die on the basis of a lie. Everybody knew they lied yet no one has done anything about it. No one has stepped up and said hey we are sorry for lying and we will leave right now. Now lets stay cause strive, kill women and children, trade them oil for food, destroy the whole economy of the country. Dress some of our soldiers up as muslims have them go to each others enemies kill them and blame it on them so America can sit back and watch people fight when our soldiers are the one's who set the bombs in the first place.

And you are forgetting that I don't support the US invasion in Iraq. I've never had.

I never said you did.

You are completing ignoring that not all Iraqis opposed the invasion and occupation. Again you are forgetting that there is a 3rd faction in this whole political mess - namely the Kurds. The Kurds want US/Allied troops in Iraq; they also wants their independence. The Kurds were only one who truly welcomed foreign troops.

None of the ones I know did. They disliked america more then Saddamm for who was it that gave Saddaam the weapons to gas them. It was America when Rumfield went there in 91. America sold Saddam the biological weapons he used on the Kurds.

No one wanted them to come, besides isn't America supposed to be implementing democracy or freedom. And since when were the Kurds the majority. Was there a vote in Iraq I missed. Since when were the Kurds a huge political voice on the issue. And why are they not in the news now it is only Sunni's and Shi'ites, where are the Kurds. Now if we are to sit here and try to justify us going into a country on the pretenses of a lie, by saying this particular group wanted us to come why did we not go earlier when Saddam first gased many of my muslim brothers and sisters, and why did we give him the gas to begin with. I mean look at all of it not just one part.

You know and I know as you said this war in Iraq is BS so if it is BS anything they come up with to try to make it so will be just added into the BS that is already there. Now If I made you a sandwich with BS and peanut butter. Does the peanut butter negate the fact that there is BS in the sandwich. For it is always there. Even if at worst case the Kurds said oh we want America to come it doesn't negate the fact that
A: We should have went much earlier when the issue of them first came up, they (america and its allies) should have stepped in then and there.
B: We should not have sold Saddaam the weapons in the first place or put him in power for it was us who put him there.
C: We should not even be there in the first place for we are over there based off of someone fairy tales.
I hear people talking about conspiracy theories well the idea that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction is the biggest conspiracy theory I have ever heard. For at least most of the CT's I have heard at least have some evidence, but WOMD is just as believable as Nixon saying I am not a crook.

The whole war is a sham, it is unjust and all based on lies. The international bankers and those who own the government contracts to rebuild the country are benefiting from it and it is a shame those who are the ones benefiting are the ones standing up there saying we need to free iraq, when what they really mean is we need to jack iraq.

I hear what everybody says about it but there is a whole lot of things going on, many of which are not in the nightly news. There are other sources of info other then that but it is sad most get their information from it. I think John Mayer said it best, "when they own the information they can bend it all they want?"

 

[rojse]

"Religion's" - I may be spliting hairs here but religions as such follow doctrines, doctrines can be good if, and only if they follow the Bible (KJV) but rarely do they.

How are you so enlightened as to know this?

 

[vandervalley]

Uh, the pipeline runs through Afganistan to get to the oil in the Caspien sea. And in order to run a pipeline through a country if they themselves are not sponsoring the pipeline then you have to either get permission, which they did not or remove those who will not allow you to do so, which they did.

Actually the war in afghanistan was the result of 911; not because of oil or oil pipelines.

 

[vandervalley]

oh and i have a question for the "One-God" worshippers.

If there is God then why does he give us free will and created a hell at the same time and send those who doesnt believe him to hell?

Does this mean he likes to see people go to hell? Obviously he knew that some people would not believe in him if they are given free will

 

[TashaN]

oh and i have a question for the "One-God" worshippers.

If there is God then why does he give us free will and created a hell at the same time and send those who doesnt believe him to hell?

Does this mean he likes to see people go to hell? Obviously he knew that some people would not believe in him if they are given free will

He gave you free will to choose either to enter to heaven or hell.

 

[McBell]

He gave you free will to choose either to enter to heaven or hell.

I choose neither.

 

[TashaN]

I choose neither.

I'm afraid you don't have that choice.

 

[Hacker]

I met alot of people who don't believe in God, and when i engage in a discussuin with them about religion, they jump into conclusions saying that religion is the source of evil in the world and they start giving me some examples.

I think that what they saw about what religion's influnce on people did was not quite accurate, because people *used* religion to gain power, money and more land, because human beings found out that religion is the most effective tool in order to control their nation. Nevertheless, just because someone used fire to burn buildings so that doesn't mean fire is no longer a source of light, heat, and feeling warm.

The question which is begging to be answered now is, as we can see that religion "in general" is not the source of evil and human beings just used it in the wrong way, so then, what's wrong with religion?

What is wrong with religion? Well to answer that in my opinion, it is a cultural control mechanism to brainwash people for the purpose of having authority and control. For example, the Quran and holy bible Bible use hell to instill fear into the followers again because of power and control. How could anyone believe a book to be true when there are many of them claiming to be the truth? Well, I am more of an agnostic theist more than anything and some people would question me and ask why would I even LEAN towards a belief in God when there isn't any scientific proof of his/her valididty. My answer? Science cannot answer many of MY questions relating to the universe and how life began. Sure evolution sounds logical, but for it to take place without any kind of higher intelligence other than us humans is far beyond my logical thinking. I cannot imagine just going through life believing that we just HAPPEN to be here by random chance without purpose! If so then what can us humans do to understand the complexity of the human mind? There is MUCH more to our DNA than you can imagine. Yeah I'm on a rant, but I visit this site and browse some of the threads and find many atheists on here trying to disprove God's existance and are very intellligent about it and actually I can understand where they are coming from ...For example, many of us RELY on science because that is what we are conditioned to believe to be the only way to prove something to be fact and to an atheist, God CANNOT be proved. But I have to say, that I feel that there is an energy force, call it God if you will, because I can feel this in my heart. I'm agnostic theist because I can't say for sure HOW this God exists, how many exists, or what it is etc. But to all of you atheists(and MANY visit this forum), please try to let go of ego and pray for once, pray for reassurance and I can guarantee you that you will feel different. I'm sorry this is so long, but I had a few drinks and in addition, have been a seeker of truth for a while now and feel that I should finally say something...especially on RF because of the many atheists that visit here. I have ALOT of empathy for atheists, I really do.:sad4: I want to end this before any of you say"well how can you prove God etc" by saying that?....But the truth is inside all of us. And I will admit, I HAVE prayed to God and asked him to prove to me his existance, and he does in many MANY ways. But from my basic knowledge from study, there are people who HAVE experienced God and it's not a God that many people are accustomed to believing in such as a man with a beard etc. watching over us and judging every move that we make. These people have validated their uncertainty (or what not)of God's existance by way of astral projection, near death experiences...yes the phenomena cannot be scientifically validated but the person who has experienced this KNOWS that is all they need for proof. And from what I have studied these experiences are REAL and explained to be an experience that they will never forget. I take their accounts of these experiences as truth, in other words, I believe them. I don't think they are lying. Especially after reading about a woman who was blind AND deaf was clinically dead in the operating room, but was able to reveal to the medical team the color of the doctor's pen and what they were saying etc. You may not have been there to speak to her about this occurance, but the medical team that was there at the time was able to say to the author who wrote this book, Life After LIfe, that this happened. Thank you for reading, and I hope and pray that the atheists of this site can see things in a new light(hey that rhymed:angel2: ). Peace and love and I wish peace within every single one of us, because earth is a hard school.)(

 

[rojse]

Although I agree with your sentiments to a certain degree, science cannot be used to disprove the existence of God.

Science has deliberately set itself apart from questioning God. Testing the forces of an individual that acts according to his own plans is not scientific.

We can use it to disprove religious assertations that can be tested scientifically, such as the age of the earth, or how animals came about.

However, disproving all of the assertions of religion does not disprove the existence of God. You need to use philosophy, theology, and theosophy to do that.

You have many interesting points within your post. Perhaps you could set up some threads to ask your questions.

 

[Hacker]

You have many interesting points within your post. Perhaps you could set up some threads to ask your questions.

Thank you rojse, and if you would, give me a few ideas of what you mean by what questions? I'd be happy to start some threads, however, it would have to be in addition to your idea because I am content with believing in life after death, a higher power, etc. I don't feel the need to try to debate that with somebody 1). because I already know MYSELF that God exists and 2.) I already stated in my last post all that I need to say.
I honestly believe that when we die, we ALL will reach paradise, and we get to see our loved ones and those who are a part of our soul group. I can also validate the fact that my father's spirit is living and I just know this, if you ask me to prove it, I can't...but YOU can KNOW this. And if we are lucky, we get to meet our dearest ones (out of our soul group) in the flesh in this lifetime, the ones that we love so much in spirit that we don't see much in the flesh.:yes: It may sound fictional, but if you search enough, you will understant it's truth....the truth that we are all human beings here with a purpose, and many may not realise that the purpose is to realise your true self, in spirit(and this actually can be achieved within the holy texts according to SOME teachings although I worry about the impact some of the OLD T has on the psyche), and that true self is achieved with a dedication to understanding

 

[Panda]

I'm afraid you don't have that choice.

So it's not really free will is it?

 

[UnTheist]

God/Allah has yet to give Atheists (or non-Christian/Muslim) any good reason to believe (evidence). Otherwise He would be sending us to Hell just because He felt like it.

And nobody wants to worship a God like that (Oh, wait. They already do)

 

[McBell]

I'm afraid you don't have that choice.

Opinions differ.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Actually the war in afghanistan was the result of 911; not because of oil or oil pipelines.

Again this is what the media tells you. 9/11 we were looking for Osama bin Laden. He was not in Afganistan. What did the taliban have to do with it. where is your evidence for this? But the pipeline and 85% of the worlds heroin is produced there. Now the Taliban outlawed opium production, and when the Americans occupied the country the amount of heroin being produced went way way up from what it was before the Taliban took over. Before the Taliban as I said over 85 percent of the heroin in the world came from this region. When they came to power it stopped. America occupies the region and the poppy is back and in more abundance. Coincidence, there is no such thing. Is it a coincidence that the puppet America put in power of Afganistan was on chairman of the board for the oil company that wanted to build the pipeline, and immediately after he was put in power the oil pipeline was ratified. Coincidence, you can think it if you want to.

You should read a book by Alfred McCoy called the politics of heroin. It will give you more insight into this issue.

I am sure your answers regarding 9/11 will depend on whether you believe the scientific evidence related to the towers or the "conspriracy theory" the government came up with.