What is wrong with religion?

[McBell]

Why quote a known wacko nutcase who believes the United States should become a Christian theocracy and then go on to dominate the world in order to bring about the Second Coming? Kennedy proposes a crusade the likes of which the world has never before seen.

I distrust anyone who cannot express his opinion without making a few bucks on it.

 

[The Great Architect]

I thinkI am a very spiritual person, but there are a lot of things 'wrong' with what we have come to call religion. The problem lies in the fact that have tried to change faith from being what it is, into what they think it should be. So many spiritual people are unwilling to compromise.

 

[wizanda]

I distrust anyone who cannot express his opinion without making a few bucks on it.

Funny as only Fake prophets do that, I can't work for money find it evil...yet work for love though always....

 

[gnostic]

I met alot of people who don't believe in God, and when i engage in a discussuin with them about religion, they jump into conclusions saying that religion is the source of evil in the world and they start giving me some examples.

First of all. Non-religious or secular people don't use the word "evil". "Evil" seemed to be the favourite word of religious people, not secular ones. Although, the US is secular, it doesn't always separate it. Bush used the "evil" in his speech, mainly because that how his religious mind works. Then, I always think Bush is a nut-case.

I see religion as a whole; a system that include deity, book, teaching, clerics, leaders and the people. Religion (like Christianity, Islam, etc) is an organisation for people who shared the same belief. Religion is not a god. I think you associate your religion, called Islam to Allah himself.

What I think you forget is that religion is also about the people; those who follow it.

For good or bad, religion will be part of problem in this world. I am not saying that religion is the source of all problem, but it has plays its part.

And the REAL BIG problem with religion is when it plays politics. When religion or religious leader gain real political, social and military power, then in a real sense the religion itself become political power. If religion is involved in politics, then rightfully so, they deserve the ill-reputed reputation.

It's true that people are the problem, probably through their interpretation. Or through their zealous. But to say that "religion" is completely faultless and the only fault comes from humans, and not its teaching, would be lying through their teeth.

You (and other Muslims) don't have any qualm about attributing the old empires to Islam, when it plays politics, but you baulk when the same Muslims today plays politics. When there is fighting among Jews and Palestinians, Muslims around the world don't say it is just between two different people; they say it is attack on Islam. When the US invaded Iraq, people (Muslims) are saying it is attack on Islam. And then others (Muslims) say it is not Islam.

Can you understand why non-Muslim people get confused? On the one hand you (not you personally) says it is, and on the other hand you says it isn't. To add to the confusion, many Muslims have called their political party and military squadrons and battalions with the name - Islam.

This is the reason why I seriously think religion should butt out of politics, because if religion wants to play, then their hands would eventually become dirty....even bloody.

 

[EtuMalku]

I find religion as a whole, another crutch that people lean on

 

[daemonikus]

I find religion as a whole, another crutch that people lean on

well stated. :clap

 

[wizanda]

Bush's is given his scripts to read....clever script writers make them points purposely and Bush being a good actor (as many of the presidents have been) presents a high note on them, as then people do what they believe is right (unless they have a brain and then question it).........
Good job the test of the nations is the “Mustard seed” which is a plant you can stick in a box and it will still grow towards the light and find its way out of the box; without needing confining to grow…..

In other words heaven has no religions and so in that, many are lost; who tell you they are found…….

 

[TashaN]

the problem with religion is not just that its followers too often take it to an extreme causing harm to others for reasons of little more than theological differences. its not just that it often advocates prejudice, intolerance and blind stereotyping. its not just that it requires following traditions (often) thousands of years old with little to no cultural alterations (which is strange since many of the traditions were developed based on the culture of the period).

its also that despite any good intentions from the religious to do good and love others, it creates a world where if things cant be explained they must be divine. a rather primitive way thinking. this in turn creates a mind that is far more willing to believe something without evidence. believing things without evidence can create paranoia, hysteria, unjustified hate, stereotyping and a host of other obstacles to the development of the human mind. just because we cannot currently explain something, doesnt mean we should attribute it to a god.

That's why you don't have to put a specfic religion in mind when you type. All religions are not the same as the one you experinced or been attached to.

 

[TashaN]

Not really. Manchester's fans don't play the game. The game of religion is played through and by the followers. In fact, having followers is sort of the point of having a "religion" in the first place.

And who said that Manchester's fans have to play the game?

Some of them just have to go down to the field and ruin a game in order to label the whole team and it's supporters to be (.....). You fill the blank. :cover:

 

[TashaN]

So one is not to judge a religion based upon the beliefs, attitudes, actions, etc of it's followers?

Excatly, at least, if you want to judge, so judge through the majority, not to just pick a minority and start labeling the whole religion witht that.

 

[TashaN]

What I think you forget is that religion is also about the people; those who follow it.

For good or bad, religion will be part of problem in this world. I am not saying that religion is the source of all problem, but it has plays its part.

And the REAL BIG problem with religion is when it plays politics. When religion or religious leader gain real political, social and military power, then in a real sense the religion itself become political power. If religion is involved in politics, then rightfully so, they deserve the ill-reputed reputation.

Don't forget that as there leaders who are willing to decieve their people using the religioun card, others will use the same technique to play the freedom defender role saying things like "I'm doing this for the country!!!"

It's all the same whether one use religious or a secular system jargons.

It's true that people are the problem, probably through their interpretation. Or through their zealous. But to say that "religion" is completely faultless and the only fault comes from humans, and not its teaching, would be lying through their teeth.

You (and other Muslims) don't have any qualm about attributing the old empires to Islam, when it plays politics, but you baulk when the same Muslims today plays politics.

They are not the same Muslims. Most of the empires in the past were ruling based on religion and everybody knows that but today it's through (religion+culture+secular+dectator) systems and it's not that hard to figure that out, that it have nothing to do with Islam even though they were Muslims.

When there is fighting among Jews and Palestinians, Muslims around the world don't say it is just between two different people; they say it is attack on Islam.

Nope, it's an attack on Muslims.

When the US invaded Iraq, people (Muslims) are saying it is attack on Islam. And then others (Muslims) say it is not Islam.

So just because you heard for a couple of people so that means all the other one billion Muslim is on agreement with them?

Can you understand why non-Muslim people get confused? On the one hand you (not you personally) says it is, and on the other hand you says it isn't. To add to the confusion, many Muslims have called their political party and military squadrons and battalions with the name - Islam.

This is the reason why I seriously think religion should butt out of politics, because if religion wants to play, then their hands would eventually become dirty....even bloody.

I think the problem is when people see religion with a different eye than a secular system, so a secualr system supporters can make mistaks, disagree amongst each other, break international laws and invade other nations, but on the other hand when religious people do it so ohhh damn their religion who asks them to do such a thing !!!!

This is not fair at all.

 

[joeboonda]

Why quote a known wacko nutcase who believes the United States should become a Christian theocracy and then go on to dominate the world in order to bring about the Second Coming? Kennedy proposes a crusade the likes of which the world has never before seen.

baloney

 

[gnostic]

When there is fighting among Jews and Palestinians, Muslims around the world don't say it is just between two different people; they say it is attack on Islam.

Nope, it's an attack on Muslims.

For many Muslims, it means virtually the same thing. Islam and Muslims become inseparable and synonym.

I think the problem is when people see religion with a different eye than a secular system, so a secualr system supporters can make mistaks, disagree amongst each other, break international laws and invade other nations, but on the other hand when religious people do it so ohhh damn their religion who asks them to do such a thing !!!!

Since you associate Islam with former empires -

They are not the same Muslims. Most of the empires in the past were ruling based on religion and everybody knows that but today it's through (religion+culture+secular+dectator) systems and it's not that hard to figure that out, that it have nothing to do with Islam even though they were Muslims.

then Islam have invaded other kingdoms and have incorporated into their empires. There were no such thing as international law, but if you look at from today's standard, then past empires have broken international laws when they conquered Eastern part of Europe and in Spain, destroy the Byzantine empire, overrun India, and lot of north African kingdoms.

If you equate past empires with Islam, then it was done so through conquests and invasions. You are quibbling over separation from what Muslims today and what Muslims have done in the past. You condemn on the one hand that anyone invading Muslim countries today, but you condone Muslim empires crushing and annexing kingdoms that don't belong to them is nothing more than double-standard and hypocritical.

You either condone or condemn invasions, but you can't justify it if the same thing happen when your country is invaded.

That's not to say I am in favour of Israel invading and occupying Palestine after WW2 or Bush invading Iraq. What happened in Israel/Palestine happened a little before more time, so anything I say would matter little because I don't really know the situation.

I have condemned Bush's invasion whole-heartedly, but something must be done to fix Iraq, and I don't see any solution from either side (eg. Americans and various factions of Iraqis, Muslims and non-Muslims). The Americans leaving Iraq would not solve the crisis in Iraq, and only fools believe it would solve it, because Sunni and Shiite are killing each other as much as they are killing Americans.

Personally, I think Iraq should be divided into 3. The Kurds deserved their own country (after missing out when the Ottoman empire fell), and they were the only ones who welcome this invasion. The allied forces should redeployed to Kurdish territory, and protect them from the Sunni and Shiite in south, and from the Turks in the north. Let the Sunni and Shiite kill each other if that's what they want, because I really sick of both of them. United Iraq won't work now without strong leadership.

 

[daemonikus]

That's why you don't have to put a specfic religion in mind when you type. All religions are not the same as the one you experinced or been attached to.

are all religions the same? of course not. but they have enough similarities for me to conclude that most have the same underlying goals.they require faith in that which cannot be proven. and that is, perhaps ironically, its biggest problem. i attach my issues with religion largely to christianity because that is what i know. and i'm pretty confident that if i had been brought up islamic i would have felt the same way, albeit with a slightly different spin.

at any rate, even if i had been brought up by satanist parents, i likely would have rejected many of the 'spiritual' and dogmatic beliefs. although i am very much in favour of many of the philosphies behind it (in its various forms).

the point is, anything that asks you to believe in something as infallible truth without proof is ludicrous and illogical. that is one of the biggest problems with religion. whatever you choose to call it. and the fact that people use it as a means to justify certain actions and behaviours only makes things worse.

 

[daemonikus]

I think the problem is when people see religion with a different eye than a secular system, so a secualr system supporters can make mistaks, disagree amongst each other, break international laws and invade other nations, but on the other hand when religious people do it so ohhh damn their religion who asks them to do such a thing !!!!

This is not fair at all.

it is fair because as i just stated (and sorry if this is repeating myself...i'm rather tired right now) religion often uses logic based on things that cannot be proven. "the bible says ________!" "the quran says ______" "the book of mormon says _______" "the (insert chosen religious text here) says ______". these are books that are completely taken as truth based on little more than faith! you cannot use faith as proof and it should not be used to justify the actions of a government.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

For many Muslims, it means virtually the same thing. Islam and Muslims become inseparable and synonym.

No Muslims have fault where Islam is Allah perfect religion.

then Islam have invaded other kingdoms and have incorporated into their empires. There were no such thing as international law, but if you look at from today's standard, then past empires have broken international laws when they conquered Eastern part of Europe and in Spain, destroy the Byzantine empire, overrun India, and lot of north African kingdoms.

If you equate past empires with Islam, then it was done so through conquests and invasions.

No many times the people accepted it, because they themselves where being oppressed and put into a caste type system where the rich swallow the poor. Islam does not allow this. there is equality and justice amongst all those protected by the muslims.

You are quibbling over separation from what Muslims today and what Muslims have done in the past.

What muslim doing today cannot be compared to those in the past for they were the best and they were on the truth and they were establishing justice, whereas muslims are squabbling over a number of different things from oppression to the conquest of wordly possessions. But who is committing the injusicte the muslims or those who invaded their land.

You condemn on the one hand that anyone invading Muslim countries today, but you condone Muslim empires crushing and annexing kingdoms that don't belong to them is nothing more than double-standard and hypocritical.

First they did not crush and annex kingdoms they unified the people and brought them together and gave them the tools to coexist despite the differences.

Muslims are having their lands invaded to steal their resources and their wealth. it is not about America being on some type of politcal jihad, they are literally stealing the wealth, land, and lives of the people. They create disunity to divide the people.

You either condone or condemn invasions, but you can't justify it if the same thing happen when your country is invaded.

You are trying to compare individuals who called people to Allah the Creator of all that exists, to people who are invading a land just to steal the wealth of the people. You compare establishing justice to looting from the weak. Amazing.

That's not to say I am in favour of Israel invading and occupying Palestine after WW2 or Bush invading Iraq. What happened in Israel/Palestine happened a little before more time, so anything I say would matter little because I don't really know the situation.

yet this is what is going on, and you still are trying to compare. Look at what is happening now and what happening then compare the facts and see who's intention is pure and whose is corrupt.

I have condemned Bush's invasion whole-heartedly, but something must be done to fix Iraq, and I don't see any solution from either side (eg. Americans and various factions of Iraqis, Muslims and non-Muslims). The Americans leaving Iraq would not solve the crisis in Iraq, and only fools believe it would solve it, because Sunni and Shiite are killing each other as much as they are killing Americans.

they should not have went in the first place, I didn't hear any Iraqi's asking for America to come in there.

Personally, I think Iraq should be divided into 3. The Kurds deserved their own country (after missing out when the Ottoman empire fell), and they were the only ones who welcome this invasion. The allied forces should redeployed to Kurdish territory, and protect them from the Sunni and Shiite in south, and from the Turks in the north. Let the Sunni and Shiite kill each other if that's what they want, because I really sick of both of them. United Iraq won't work now without strong leadership.

Autho billah, the only thing that will help them is true Islam, what Muhammed and his blessed companions brought, nothing else.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

it is fair because as i just stated (and sorry if this is repeating myself...i'm rather tired right now) religion often uses logic based on things that cannot be proven. "the bible says ________!" "the quran says ______" "the book of mormon says _______" "the (insert chosen religious text here) says ______". these are books that are completely taken as truth based on little more than faith! you cannot use faith as proof and it should not be used to justify the actions of a government.

have you ever read the quran and had someone explain it to you?

 

[Mike182]

I met alot of people who don't believe in God, and when i engage in a discussuin with them about religion, they jump into conclusions saying that religion is the source of evil in the world and they start giving me some examples.

I think that what they saw about what religion's influnce on people did was not quite accurate, because people *used* religion to gain power, money and more land, because human beings found out that religion is the most effective tool in order to control their nation. Nevertheless, just because someone used fire to burn buildings so that doesn't mean fire is no longer a source of light, heat, and feeling warm.

The question which is begging to be answered now is, as we can see that religion "in general" is not the source of evil and human beings just used it in the wrong way, so then, what's wrong with religion?

dogma.

many people who are not religious are put off the mainstream, organised religions because of anti-gay, anti-abortion dogmas.

 

[MaddLlama]

dogma.

many people who are not religious are put off the mainstream, organised religions because of anti-gay, anti-abortion dogmas.

I don't even think its that specifically. I think people are generally turned off by the "my way is the only way" and the "more moral than thou" attitudes.

 

[McBell]

I don't even think its that specifically. I think people are generally turned off by the "my way is the only way" and the "more moral than thou" attitudes.

It says I have to spread some around before I can frubal you.