What is wrong with sharia law?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

All hadith are somewhat suspect, let's remember. And even among those Muslims who take the Qur'an as word-for-word God's word, there are those who don't see in it a prohibition of homosexuality or of homosexual relationships. And there are of course Muslims who see God's revelation as having come to us filtered by cultural lenses and historical circumstances in the form of the Qur'an anyway.

True but let's remember that the sahih ones (and Bukhari definitely is one) are nonetheless an accepted part of Islamic orthodoxy. No matter how many times Sunni Muslims say 'ah but that's a hadith and it can't be trusted' - remind them (where appropriate) that sahih means 'trusted'.

 

[Kirran]

True but let's remember that the sahih ones (and Bukhari definitely is one) are nonetheless an accepted part of Islamic orthodoxy. No matter how many times Sunni Muslims say 'ah but that's a hadith and it can't be trusted' - remind them (where appropriate) that sahih means 'trusted'.

True enough. But there's no need for us to try and convince people they do accept the stuff in hadith when they don't - there are substantial numbers of common Muslims, Quraniyoon and the more theologically liberal who don't see any need to accept them.

Of course in many parts of the world a great many Muslims don't see the need to be bound by every word of the Qur'an, like many Christians with the Bible.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

True enough. But there's no need for us to try and convince people they do accept the stuff in hadith when they don't - there are substantial numbers of common Muslims, Quraniyoon and the more theologically liberal who don't see any need to accept them.

Of course in many parts of the world a great many Muslims don't see the need to be bound by every word of the Qur'an, like many Christians with the Bible.

You make some good points. But the way some go on, we might be forgiven for thinking that homophobia in Islam is some kind of religious innovation (bid'ah).

 

[Notanumber]

Is it all this confusion regarding Islamic text that is breading radicalism?

 

[Kirran]

You make some good points. But the way some go on, we might be forgiven for thinking that homophobia in Islam is some kind of religious innovation (bid'ah).

That's a fair point, the degree to which homophobia dominates in almost all spheres of Islamic discourse is often downplayed. It's something that is going to start being faced up to more and more, I think. Fortunately, liberal and progressive Muslim groups are finding their voices now, as they have a place they can live and speak freely in the Western diaspora. Their visibility there has given them a podium to speak from to the rest of the Muslim world.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

True enough. But there's no need for us to try and convince people they do accept the stuff in hadith when they don't - there are substantial numbers of common Muslims, Quraniyoon and the more theologically liberal who don't see any need to accept them.

It's fair enough that these individual Muslims don't personally consider them reliable, but for them to act like sahih ahadith are not a part of Islam at all is something else entirely. No matter how much they don't like them, these hadith have influenced Islam whether they deny it or not.

 

[Kirran]

It's fair enough that these individual Muslims don't personally consider them reliable, but for them to act like sahih ahadith are not a part of Islam at all is something else entirely. No matter how much they don't like them, these hadith have influenced Islam whether they deny it or not.

Totally, yes. We're in agreement. They've been a major part of the Islamic tradition.

 

[Notanumber]

That's a fair point, the degree to which homophobia dominates in almost all spheres of Islamic discourse is often downplayed. It's something that is going to start being faced up to more and more, I think. Fortunately, liberal and progressive Muslim groups are finding their voices now, as they have a place they can live and speak freely in the Western diaspora. Their visibility there has given them a podium to speak from to the rest of the Muslim world.

Is this what you are referring to?

Progressive Muslims Launch Gay-Friendly, Women-Led Mosques In Attempt To Reform American Islam | The Huffington Post

I would be interested to find out what Godobeyer and Sovietchild think of such organisations.

 

[Kirran]

Is this what you are referring to?

Progressive Muslims Launch Gay-Friendly, Women-Led Mosques In Attempt To Reform American Islam | The Huffington Post

I would be interested to find out what Godobeyer and Sovietchild think of such organisations.

That's an example, yeah. I can't imagine they're very positive about it!

 

[LuisDantas]

True enough. But there's no need for us to try and convince people they do accept the stuff in hadith when they don't - there are substantial numbers of common Muslims, Quraniyoon and the more theologically liberal who don't see any need to accept them.

I think you are however missing the target. The Qur'an is not any better a religious guide than the average hadith.

We should not hesitate in pointing out that people's religious life is not to be guided by scripture over common decency.

We should however hesitate to hope some groups of scripturalists to turn out more reasonable than others without a clear reason to expect so, lest we end up unwillingly supporting scripturalism itself and the evils that it brings.

Of course in many parts of the world a great many Muslims don't see the need to be bound by every word of the Qur'an, like many Christians with the Bible.

Yet all too often they are surrounded by a social environment that nonetheless expects them to agree that the Qur'an is indeed binding in every respect if push comes to shove. Those great many Muslims you speak of have so far managed to avoid the brunt of that perhaps unavoidable confrontation, but who knows how things will turn out if they have to choose sides?

Is there even any upside to just accepting that and hoping for the best?

I don't think so. We should point out often and wide that there is no way for reliance on the Qur'an over decency to be accepted or even tolerated. We should draw such a line and encourage Muslims to do likewise now while there is still some damage control to be done.

 

[Notanumber]

That's an example, yeah. I can't imagine they're very positive about it!

That is the problem!

 

[Kirran]

That is the problem!

Well yeah, same as it has been in Christianity. The differences are only of degree, not kind. It wasn't always easy for theologically liberal Christianity to become an accepted mainstream voice, and it will take time and argument for it to happen in Islam too. But it's happening.

 

[Notanumber]

Well yeah, same as it has been in Christianity. The differences are only of degree, not kind. It wasn't always easy for theologically liberal Christianity to become an accepted mainstream voice, and it will take time and argument for it to happen in Islam too. But it's happening.

Christianity is not a threat to our way of life.

If you read the link, you will see that it will not happen in our lifetime!

 

[LuisDantas]

Well yeah, same as it has been in Christianity. The differences are only of degree, not kind. It wasn't always easy for theologically liberal Christianity to become an accepted mainstream voice, and it will take time and argument for it to happen in Islam too. But it's happening.

Islaamic communities have destroyed dissenters before, you know. There is such a thing as a necessary critical mass.

We should not trust luck alone.

 

[oldbadger]

Islaamic communities have destroyed dissenters before, you know. There is such a thing as a necessary critical mass.

We should not trust luck alone.

So what do you suggest that we trust in?
Dissenters and apostates die in many Islamic countries, so what would you propose?

 

[Notanumber]

So what do you suggest that we trust in?
Dissenters and apostates die in many Islamic countries, so what would you propose?

We should do our very best to ensure that free western countries do not turn into Islamic countries.

 

[LuisDantas]

So what do you suggest that we trust in?
Dissenters and apostates die in many Islamic countries, so what would you propose?

Clear communication.

Far too many Muslims (and for that matter Christians, although we turned out somewhat more lucky with them overall) have grown accustomed to a perspection that social acceptance and respect are a function of professed creed more than of action and attitude.

We must make it otherwise and present it as such in no unclear terms. We must reach out across nominal religions and show clear good will, instead of taking the flip side of their refuge in religious labels.

Call it a carrot and stick if you will. The stick is the abandonment of scripturalism. The carrot is actual dialog, acceptance and good will.

 

[Kirran]

Christianity is not a threat to our way of life.

If you read the link, you will see that it will not happen in our lifetime!

I don't see the article you linked to supporting that stance.

Islaamic communities have destroyed dissenters before, you know. There is such a thing as a necessary critical mass.

We should not trust luck alone.

We'll see how it goes. Progressive and liberal Muslim voices in the West are solid communities, and they're safe there. In some Muslim-majority countries they're much better off than others. Islam is no monolith, and neither is the Ummah.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't see the article you linked to supporting that stance.

We'll see how it goes. Progressive and liberal Muslim voices in the West are solid communities, and they're safe there. In some Muslim-majority countries they're much better off than others. Islam is no monolith, and neither is the Ummah.

It seems to me that it comes down to how much faith one has that Muslims can find their way out of that trap of their own making without external encouragement.

You clearly have considerably more of that than I do.

 

[Kirran]

It seems to me that it comes down to how much faith one has that Muslims can find their way out of that trap of their own making without external encouragement.

You clearly have considerably more of that than I do.

That's because I've read more of the writings of progressive Muslims than you have, I've read more liberal Islamic exegesis and I've become more aware of the diversity of understandings and stances among the world's 1.6 billion Muslims. I haven't bought in to the homogenous orthodox narrative of Islam which many Muslims of the modern orthodoxy try to sell.