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What is Your Disbelief?

I Am Hugh

Researcher
What I don't believe exists is anything non-physical.

Belief, faith, trust, means you don't know, you think something is true, will prove to be true, or will occur in an expected manner. Science, for example, couldn't proceed without it. Perhaps with skeptical oriented people lack of belief tends to be not so much a disbelief in the immaterial, but a lack of confirmation. If you look historically at science, there is often a problem, as there should be, with the unconfirmed, while science is the process of confirming. Mechanical flight, and the germ theory during the miasmatic school of thought, were problematic.

Simply because I have no reason to believe in anything non-physical.

If you have no reason to believe a thing then you shouldn't believe it, but part of any evaluation regards possible outcomes. Those outcomes may or may not be what is expected and in either case can increase knowledge. So, you can't truly know that the God of the Bible does or doesn't exist. You can believe or disbelieve.

How I define physical is anything which can be detected by our senses or can affect something which we can detect by our senses.

You can see a magic (supernatural) trick performed with your eyes but you know it isn't real. It isn't that it hasn't happened. You can see the color red, but the color red doesn't exist. There are sounds, color, living entities surrounding us that we can't sense.

Gods are human constructs like gender, marriage, religion, class, government, fashion, money, family, beauty, time, race, etc.. If something, material or immaterial, physical or non-physical, natural or supernatural is worshiped (venerated) it is a god and exists as such. The question of literal existence needs to be specific and clearly defined. In the case of the Bible there are different applications of gods. Jesus and Moses were allegedly men who existed and were both called Gods in the Bible. The ancient word simply means mighty, venerated. The modern English word God means to pour, libate, sacrifice. Things that you do in worship.

Spirit (spirituality) simply means invisible to our naked eye, but producing visible results. Breath, wind, impelled mental inclination, electricity, pathogens are examples of the spiritual. But also spirit beings as described in the Bible. Jehovah God, the angels. But those words, God and angels were also given to mortal men you would have no trouble determining were possibly real.

People often dismiss the Bible as being the product of primitive ignorance and superstition, man's grappling with ontological possibilities and creating some sort of explanation, but you don't see that in the Bible. You see people who were concrete in their thinking and knew how their world, their reality worked because they were immersed in it. Some outside entities were allegedly suggesting something beyond that which they didn't understand and they didn't need to understand because it didn't affect their material world. Modern science is more accurately defined as representative of the perspective which critics of the Bible project upon primitive man in that sense. They (primitives) weren't curious about things they didn't understand or didn't affect their materialistic, practical, concrete perspective.

It's sort of like the example of people boiling water long before science could explain what happens when water is boiled. They didn't need an explanation to see the results. But the modern man has convinced himself that he has a better grip on reality when he postulates (usually incorrectly) what motivated the superstitious or even primitive.

Therefore anything claimed as supernatural or divine is imaginary to me.

The obvious problem with that is that it is limited to existing knowledge, or perceived knowledge as it currently exists. The miasmatic vs. germ theories mentioned earlier. Semmelweis Reflex. At one time whales and giant squids were supernatural, perceived the same as mermaids. So, is imaginary real? Imaginary (complex) numbers are not real in the sense that they can't be quantified on a number line, but they are real in that they exist and are used in math. I suck at math, but I Googled that and I trust that, believe, have faith that it is true with very little evidence or confirmation. It could be debated, but I wouldn't know what to do with it or care because it isn't useful for me personally in my everyday life.

I understand other people believe in a reality which includes spiritual/non-physical elements. However in an argument or discussion these non-physical concepts have no significant meaning or explanatory value.

Like imaginary numbers to me. That's fair, don't you think? Specifically, that you don't believe, trust or have faith in those things. What I've found in over a quarter of a century of those admittedly insignificant and meaningless discussions is that, like with most things, there is ignorance of both unbelievers and believers on the subject. Science (knowledge) without evidence (examination). I often call this the dividing line between the quixotic (idealistic to an impractical degree) and the mundane (irreligious).

For the unconfirmed to be examined or evaluated or the confirmed to be reexamined and reevaluated you have to use care in dismissing evidence but you do have to do that. It isn't fair or accurate to do it in ignorance, assumption, or previous misrepresentation. With the Bible and religion there has been a lot of that.

I don't mean this offensively, one has to choose for themselves what they are willing to accept. However this is how my mind works in discussions.

I don't take any offense at all in disbelief. It makes perfect sense to me if there is reason for it. People see things differently. To object to another's findings is the stuff of ideologues.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
With evidence how is that important? And what rule are you using for important?
I don’t think it is important, as such. It just seems to me such a basic point, that different is not the same as real. I get what you mean that difference may depend, if seen in a certain way, on the different objects being real, but that’s only a construct for the purposes of a certain kind of argument. Difference, however, is built into the most basic fabric of human experience. Even if everything you perceive is a product of your imagination, you are still perceiving things that are different to each other, imaginary or not. An imaginary banana is different to an imaginary orange, for example. So, I don’t get why you confuse the two questions, is it real/are things (real or not) different to each other in some sense. I don’t think this is a matter of overwhelming importance, though.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I don’t think it is important, as such. It just seems to me such a basic point, that different is not the same as real. I get what you mean that difference may depend, if seen in a certain way, on the different objects being real, but that’s only a construct for the purposes of a certain kind of argument. Difference, however, is built into the most basic fabric of human experience. Even if everything you perceive is a product of your imagination, you are still perceiving things that are different to each other, imaginary or not. An imaginary banana is different to an imaginary orange, for example. So, I don’t get why you confuse the two questions, is it real/are things (real or not) different to each other in some sense. I don’t think this is a matter of overwhelming importance, though.

Yeah, that you do that is only real, because you do it as a process in you as per your brain/mind.
So it is not real as independent of your brain and only exists because of how you think.

So for a neutral understanding that don't claim in effect positive specific metaphysics/ontology, there are in effect 3 kinds of categories:
-Processes independent of (human) brains.
-Processes dependent on brains and relevant as individual.
-Processes dependent on brains and relevant as shared.

So for your dog that is as for the dog the first one. For the bold that is the second one and can be shared with other humans, who think the same.
Your model doesn't adress that as it is all about objective versus imaginary, but that is not all of the world for humans as in the world and parts of the world.
So what you think is always imaginary as it is not independent of your brain and is daft, bullocks and all the other negative words. ;)
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that you do that is only real, because you do it as a process in you as per your brain/mind.
So it is not real as independent of your brain and only exists because of how you think.

So for a neutral understanding that don't claim in effect positive specific metaphysics/ontology, there are in effect 3 kinds of categories:
-Processes independent of (human) brains.
-Processes dependent on brains and relevant as individual.
-Processes dependent on brains and relevant as shared.

So for your dog that is as for the dog the first one. For the bold that is the second one and can be shared with other humans, who think the same.
Your model doesn't adress that as it is all about objective versus imaginary, but that is not all of the world for humans as in the world and parts of the world.
So what you think is always imaginary as it is not independent of your brain and is daft, bullocks and all the other negative words. ;)
No, you just keep reading things into my posts that aren’t there. Are things real/are thing different to each other = two different categories of question. That’s the, very simple, point.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, you just keep reading things into my posts that aren’t there. Are things real/are thing different to each other = two different categories of question. That’s the, very simple, point.

Well, there are more differences that your meeting person versus person in book. That is not all of the world and you can't live your life only based on that.
And you seem unable to understand that we individually use different cognitive schemata for what matters in the end.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Well, there are more differences that your meeting person versus person in book. That is not all of the world and you can't live your life only based on that.
And you seem unable to understand that we individually use different cognitive schemata for what matters in the end.
I’m not talking about what matters, or there only being one difference. Where are you getting those ideas from?

1) are things real? 2) are things different (regardless of whether they are real or not)?

That’s it, that’s the whole story, that those are different questions. That’s the entirety of the point. Of course there are more differences - why state the obvious? The only point is real/different mean different things.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I’m not talking about what matters, or there only being one difference. Where are you getting those ideas from?

1) are things real? 2) are things different (regardless of whether they are real or not)?

That’s it, that’s the whole story, that those are different questions. That’s the entirety of the point. Of course there are more differences - why state the obvious? The only point is real/different mean different things.

Yeah, but your point was that it mattered in regards to religion and it was in effect the correct way to understand religion. That is your assumptions in this debate.
I dont' share these assumptions.
So yes, you are right about the difference you point out, but that is not the only way to understand religion.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
So yes, you are right about the difference you point out
Good.
but that is not the only way to understand religion
Yes, of course. People can understand it any way they like. To me it seems obvious that people create religions, pretty much always have. 99% of human societies everywhere in the world have invented their own creation stories, gods and accompanying myths. These religions change over time. Christianity, for example, is practiced differently all over the world, and differently within individual nations, and very differently to when it was a new religion. Wherever any anthropologist, or missionary, or any other interested party goes in the world, they encounter religious stories of one kind or another, that address similar topics wherever they arise. Regarding the most popular religions in the West, we know about these because they are written about it books. ‘Professional’ Christians, for example, take those old stories and adapt them for the modern world, then you have a church. All the evidence suggests that these are entirely human creations, based on the mysterious activities of the human mind. Any other person can choose to think about it in whatever other way takes their fancy.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Good.

Yes, of course. People can understand it any way they like. To me it seems obvious that people create religions, pretty much always have. 99% of human societies everywhere in the world have invented their own creation stories, gods and accompanying myths. These religions change over time. Christianity, for example, is practiced differently all over the world, and differently within individual nations, and very differently to when it was a new religion. Wherever any anthropologist, or missionary, or any other interested party goes in the world, they encounter religious stories of one kind or another, that address similar topics wherever they arise. Regarding the most popular religions in the West, we know about these because they are written about it books. ‘Professional’ Christians, for example, take those old stories and adapt them for the modern world, then you have a church. All the evidence suggests that these are entirely human creations, based on the mysterious activities of the human mind. Any other person can choose to think about it in whatever other way takes their fancy.

So you admit limited cognitive, cultural and moral relativism in the end? Or something else? :)
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
So you admit limited cognitive, cultural and moral relativism in the end? Or something else? :)
What do you mean ‘in the end’? The notion that I don’t exists only in your mind, extrapolated somehow from posts about something entirely different.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What do you mean ‘in the end’? The notion that I don’t exists only in your mind, extrapolated somehow from posts about something entirely different.

Well, not that the world is in practice neither just objective nor just subjective. Nor just facts nor just beliefs.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Well, not that the world is in practice neither just objective nor just subjective. Nor just facts nor just beliefs.
Sure, I suppose there are some bona fide, 100% material determinists out there, but I would guess that the majority view allows for varying degrees of subjectivity on a macro scale too.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Sure, I suppose there are some bona fide, 100% material determinists out there, but I would guess that the majority view allows for varying degrees of subjectivity on a macro scale too.

Well, it might have some relevance to the opening post of this thread. :)
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What is Your Disbelief?

paarsurrey said:
My disbelief is in Western Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism* and all of their other denominations, and Pauline-Christianity is the flip side* of Western Atheism and the vice versa, whatever their label/name may be, please, right?
Why to believe in them, right, please??!
*Western Atheism people (including all their hues and or denominations) sprang up to start with as they refused to accept a human God Jesus and Trinity in reaction to the prime creeds of Pauline-Christianity, right?
Uh no, wrong. Religions involve belief in some kind of higher power. Atheism/agnosticism/scepticism, as you put it, are more open-ended, acknowledging there is no reason to believe in any of the various gods humans have thought up over time, and taking the universe to be whatever it is, however understood by the individual. An attitude of acceptance and curiosity is assumed in place of a belief system. It only looks like a belief system to people who have such a system and are unable to imagine thinking without one.
So one means " Atheism/agnosticism/scepticism " having no basis of their own are simply "superstition", right, please?

Regards
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
What is Your Disbelief?

paarsurrey said:
My disbelief is in Western Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism* and all of their other denominations, and Pauline-Christianity is the flip side* of Western Atheism and the vice versa, whatever their label/name may be, please, right?
Why to believe in them, right, please??!
*Western Atheism people (including all their hues and or denominations) sprang up to start with as they refused to accept a human God Jesus and Trinity in reaction to the prime creeds of Pauline-Christianity, right?

So one means " Atheism/agnosticism/scepticism " having no basis of their own are simply "superstition", right, please?

Regards
If you’re expecting an answer to that, you’ll have to explain what you mean.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
What is Your Disbelief?

paarsurrey said:
My disbelief is in Western Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism* and all of their other denominations, and Pauline-Christianity is the flip side* of Western Atheism and the vice versa, whatever their label/name may be, please, right?
Why to believe in them, right, please??!
*Western Atheism people (including all their hues and or denominations) sprang up to start with as they refused to accept a human God Jesus and Trinity in reaction to the prime creeds of Pauline-Christianity, right?

So one means " Atheism/agnosticism/scepticism " having no basis of their own are simply "superstition", right, please?

Regards
Here’s a definition of superstition:

superstition | ,supa'stifn |


noun [mass noun]


excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural: he dismissed the ghost stories as mere superstition.


• [count noun] a widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences, especially as leading to good or bad luck, or a practice based on such a belief: she touched her locket for luck, a superstition she'd had since childhood.

You can look up definitions of atheism, then explain what you think the link between the two is.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What is Your Disbelief?

paarsurrey said:
My disbelief is in Western Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism* and all of their other denominations, and Pauline-Christianity is the flip side* of Western Atheism and the vice versa, whatever their label/name may be, please, right?
Why to believe in them, right, please??!
*Western Atheism people (including all their hues and or denominations) sprang up to start with as they refused to accept a human God Jesus and Trinity in reaction to the prime creeds of Pauline-Christianity, right?

So one means " Atheism/agnosticism/scepticism " having no basis of their own are simply "superstition", right, please?
Here’s a definition of superstition:
superstition | ,supa'stifn |
noun [mass noun]
excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural: he dismissed the ghost stories as mere superstition.
• [count noun] a widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences, especially as leading to good or bad luck, or a practice based on such a belief: she touched her locket for luck, a superstition she'd had since childhood.
You can look up definitions of atheism, then explain what you think the link between the two is.

unreasonableness " a widely held but irrational " having no basis of its own, one gets to know, is also superstition.

Regards
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
a widely held but irrational " having no basis of its own, one gets to know, is also superstition.
Your idea is that not believing in fictional gods is ‘unreasonable’? What is your basis for that idea, other than superstition?

Unreasonable does not mean the same thing as superstition. A superstition, such a belief in invisible gods intervening in human affairs, is not an unreasonable idea in the absence of knowledge, but that doesn’t make it any less of a superstition.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I disbelieve that everything in reality can be explained by way of our sense experiences.

Empiricism cannot take you all the way to knowing everything important to know. Evidence can only explain behaviors of phenomena, but never the intrinsic nature of existence.

I disbelieve that scientists, and especially physicalists do not engage in heavy doses of philosophy all the time to establish all their important convictions.

I disbelieve that love is brain chemicals. Everyone that says so is unable to demonstrate how that exactly happens with all it entails.

I disbelieve that humans experience every dimension of existence.
What does "reality" mean to you, then?

The term grew from what we can know. What we can know is what is evident to our senses or derived through logic. Existence refers to what we experience.

I won't disagree with you about the brain chemicals. ;-)
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
What does "reality" mean to you, then?

The term grew from what we can know. What we can know is what is evident to our senses or derived through logic. Existence refers to what we experience.

I won't disagree with you about the brain chemicals. ;-)
Reality is what is regardless of what we know about it. :)
 
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