What is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

[Nakosis]

Dishonest marketing by Sanders?
Impossible!

Historically, Sanders is a Communist. He loved Communism. Of course it's not impossible that he changed his position on Communism but it is just as likely that he can't get any political support by calling himself a Communist.

Why does he hold onto the term Socialist while claiming he is a capitalist?
Why muddy his position? Perhaps he still harbors some hope in moving the US towards Communism.

 

[Revoltingest]

Historically, Sanders is a Communist. He loved Communism. Of course it's not impossible that he changed his position on Communism but it is just as likely that he can't get any political support by calling himself a Communist.

Why does he hold onto the term Socialist while claiming he is a capitalist?
Why muddy his position? Perhaps he still harbors some hope in moving the US towards Communism.

Marketing a politician isn't about accuracy in labeling.
It's about using labels to create a feeling of affection.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Capitalism is controlled chaos, and sure, we're in an atrocious corporatist phase right now where corporations are treated like people with more than equal rights, but that's not the way things used to work, and we can still fix this.

They're treated like kings and nobles of eras past. And it wasn't that way in the more recent past (it was more unfettered prior to that and far, far worse in regards to human dignity and rights because they too had a price tag to be sold and traded as property and market commodities) because it was far more constrained, and the upper-most income level was taxed high enough to encourage putting that money instead into improving things for workers. And now the greed that oils the gears of profit are beginning to turn with fewer hindrances to slow them down.

 

[leov]

"the way it's designed to" is the operating phrase there. There's a reason every country that has tried socialism has ended up in the toilet. No system with humans in it ever works perfectly as planned. Capitalism is controlled chaos, and sure, we're in an atrocious corporatist phase right now where corporations are treated like people with more than equal rights, but that's not the way things used to work, and we can still fix this. I'll be supporting some Democrats in the primaries myself, but I won't just cast a presidential ballot for any old person with a D next to their name.

Real socialism never happened. It always was a part of *but some are more equal than others".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why does he hold onto the term Socialist while claiming he is a capitalist?
Why muddy his position? Perhaps he still harbors some hope in moving the US towards Communism.

Socialism still has markets and can still have capitalism. Communism, at least as Marx wrote, has no money for Capitalism to function or exist. Democratic Socialist (what Sanders is) is still based on Capitalism but with a Socialist drive to benefit the masses.

 

[Shiranui117]

Real socialism never happened. It always was a part of *but some are more equal than others".

And what makes you think it will work this time? Humans are the same no matter where you go.

 

[Nakosis]

Socialism still has markets and can still have capitalism. Communism, at least as Marx wrote, has no money for Capitalism to function or exist. Democratic Socialist (what Sanders is) is still based on Capitalism but with a Socialist drive to benefit the masses.

According to Sanders.
I mean I initially took him at his word, then I looked into his history.
Maybe he has changed, just a little hard to believe considering the love affair he has had with socialism and socialist leaders his entire life.

 

[dawny0826]

"the way it's designed to" is the operating phrase there. There's a reason every country that has tried socialism has ended up in the toilet. No system with humans in it ever works perfectly as planned. Capitalism is controlled chaos, and sure, we're in an atrocious corporatist phase right now where corporations are treated like people with more than equal rights, but that's not the way things used to work, and we can still fix this. I'll be supporting some Democrats in the primaries myself, but I won't just cast a presidential ballot for any old person with a D next to their name.

Support of certain socialist ideals/programs doesn't negate my support of other capitalist ideals/programs. I will always support a free market for commerce. I just don't feel that free market health care is feasible anymore, given the astronomical costs and the fact that people are too often at the mercy of their insurance company as to whether or not they qualify for something life-improving/life-saving. No one should be faced with something as terrible as the prospect of dying due to illness and then face the type of debt that ensues.

There are European countries & Canada who have done remarkably well with universal health care, while maintaining free markets in other areas.

There are countries who offer free college and have proven it to be sustainable.

It's been done before and can work.

I won't be voting for Trump. There are certainly Democratic candidates who are more appealing to me than others.

 

[leov]

And what makes you think it will work this time? Humans are the same no matter where you go.

I did not say that it is going to work , it is utopia that can be tried under something like dictatorship of proletariat,, or may be 1000 years of Christ reign on Earth. Socialism needs honest good will to work. This is main reason that 'building of communist society' failed in the USSR : failure of new communist consciousness to materialize.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Public works and welfare are not Socialist. Every single country in the world has had public works, regardless of their economic system. Democratic Socialism advocates the complete abolition of private enterprise in favor of a state-controlled economy wherein the government owns all businesses in every sector, and it inevitably leads to authoritarianism and the suppression of freedoms of speech and religion. East Germany is an example of Democratic Socialism--nominally "democratic", but in reality only the Socialist Party is allowed to win.

Democratic socialism is not opposed to public enterprise. That is more akin to Communism. The other first world countries are not authoritarian in nature, they are voted the happiest, healthiest and safest countries in the world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I just don't feel that free market health care is feasible anymore, given the astronomical costs and the fact that people are too often at the mercy of their insurance company as to whether or not they qualify for something life-improving/life-saving. No one should be faced with something as terrible as the prospect of dying due to illness and then face the type of debt that ensues.

"Immoral and evil" is the only way to describe our system. People complain they don't want the government between doctors and patients, but as it is now insurance companies are so firmly lodged between patient and doctor that there is little room for anyone and anything else, including at times the clinician, evidence, and accepted practices. Doctors have committed fraud and lied to insurance so I could get the care I needed, and I have paid it forward and committed fraud for my clients when they needed what insurance won't give them (or help them find loopholes around unreasonable insurance demands). Going into healthcare, in my experience it isn't practicing health but practicing making money for a company and fighting with insurance so your clients can get needed care.

 

[Revoltingest]

Socialism still has markets and can still have capitalism.

That's what RF calls "state capitalism" in its definitions.
The USSR was an example of it.
This is why socialists & communists can post in the restricted Capitalist Only forum.
Hardly any point in the restriction, eh.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's what RF calls "state capitalism" in its definitions.
The USSR was an example of it.
This is why socialists & communists can post in the restricted Capitalist Only forum.
Hardly any point in the restriction, eh.

Yup. I'm not a purist, but our culture has reached a point where "mix and match" has become ridiculous. Socialism and Communism, granted, those two are debated as to the specifics of what is what and if they are interchangeable or not, but they clearly aren't capitalist. Just as Marxists aren't Libertarians and Libertarians aren't Marxists. We might sometimes be just as "south" as Libertarians, but the two are fundamentally opposing ideologies built upon inherently and radically different economic systems, which is pretty much the core issue to Marxists and Libertarians and why one group are Marxists and the other Libertarians.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yup. I'm not a purist, but our culture has reached a point where "mix and match" has become ridiculous. Socialism and Communism, granted, those two are debated as to the specifics of what is what and if they are interchangeable or not, but they clearly aren't capitalist. Just as Marxists aren't Libertarians and Libertarians aren't Marxists. We might sometimes be just as "south" as Libertarians, but the two are fundamentally opposing ideologies built upon inherently and radically different economic systems, which is pretty much the core issue to Marxists and Libertarians and why one group are Marxists and the other Libertarians.

According to RF definitions, one can be a communist libertarian & a capitalist socialist.
But one cannot be a libertarian feminist per the definitions.
Go figure.
I think what actually happens is that one is perceived as of or not of the tribe.
And this drives getting permission or the boot in restricted political forums.

 

[Shiranui117]

Democratic socialism is not opposed to public enterprise. That is more akin to Communism. The other first world countries are not authoritarian in nature, they are voted the happiest, healthiest and safest countries in the world.

They're also not Democratic Socialist.

 

[leov]

I did not say that it is going to work , it is utopia that can be tried under something like dictatorship of proletariat,, or may be 1000 years of Christ reign on Earth. Socialism needs honest good will to work. This is main reason that 'building of communist society' failed in the USSR : failure of new communist consciousness to materialize.

Imo, true , non utopian, socialism is capable to solve many serious world's problems.

 

[Lyndon]

They're also not Democratic Socialist.

you can post lies about it all you want, still doesn't make it true!!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And what makes you think it will work this time? Humans are the same no matter where you go.

The approach is different and more like Marx wrote of it, where things gradually transition from Capitalism to Socialism (and then to Communism according to Marx).

 

[Shiranui117]

you can post lies about it all you want, still doesn't make it true!!

Apparently you've never been to any of these countries and don't know how they work. Sure, there are some Democratic Socialist parties in these countries, but for the most part they're either fringe or at best junior partners in government coalitions. The Social Democratic parties are the major players on the left--SPD, SPÖ, Labor, etc.

 

[Lyndon]

Apparently you've never been to any of these countries and don't know how they work. Sure, there are some Democratic Socialist parties in these countries, but for the most part they're either fringe or at best junior partners in government coalitions. The Social Democratic parties are the major players on the left--SPD, SPÖ, Labor, etc.

I come from one of those countries, the Labour/Socialist party makes up roughly 50% of the seats in coalition with the green party, you can post what i would consider ignorant dribble all you want, we're just not going to believe you.