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What is your opinion of Jesus?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And your claim of 'dual application' of prophesy reminds me of the most recent apologetics I get when Christians cannot refute the fact that Isaiah 7:14 and its spurious claim to be both Messianic and about a virgin birth are a fraud -
Are you saying that that the claim that Christians make, that Jesus was born of a virgin and Jesus was also the Messiah, are contradictory?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
That is not what the verses say. There are no verses that say that Jesus will returns in power and in His glorified form to rule and reign upon the earth from Jerusalem. There are no verses tat say the same man Jesus is going to return, period. There are only verses where Jesus says that he is no more in the world and His work is finished here. (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

I have my own interpretation of that verse.

Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.

One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.

Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The Lord God is the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus is not the Lord God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, a Messenger of God, and a Prophet of God.
We’ll just have to disagree on the subject because I believe what the biblical scriptures say about the return of Jesus Christ, not what the Baha’i’ writings say on the subject or their interpretation of what the Bible says.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
And yet.... how many years or decades was it before any of them were moved enough to write one single word down about this Greatest Story Ever Told? How long would you have waited to put pen to papyrus?
I don’t think it was decades…

“Jesus' ministry was from A.D. 27-30. Noted New Testament scholar, F.F. Bruce, gives strong evidence that the New Testament was completed by A.D. 100.3 Most writings of the New Testament works were completed twenty to forty years before this. The Gospels are dated traditionally as follows: Mark is believed to be the first gospel written around A.D. 60. Matthew and Luke follow and are written between A.D. 60-70; John is the final gospel, written between A.D. 90-100.

The internal evidence supports these early dates for several reasons. The first three Gospels prophesied the fall of the Jerusalem Temple which occurred in A.D. 70. However, the fulfillment is not mentioned. It is strange that these three Gospels predict this major event but do not record it happening. Why do they not mention such an important prophetic milestone? The most plausible explanation is that it had not yet occurred at the time Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written.”
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Your information is anecdotal at best. With only some 350.000 Messianic Jews in a population of almost 16 million Jews, they are clearly a fringe group of less than 3%. And as much as it serves your agenda to demonize mainstream Jews for logically having a problem with this fringe group that spits on the primary teachings of Judaism, it's a pretty weak argument. They're like to Westboro Baptist Church. Do you support their fringe doctrines as well? Do you support their claim that “God’s hatred is one of His holy attributes” - just because they use the bible to support it? Or is it possible that THEY are the ones that have misinterpreted?

And your claim of 'dual application' of prophesy reminds me of the most recent apologetics I get when Christians cannot refute the fact that Isaiah 7:14 and its spurious claim to be both Messianic and about a virgin birth are a fraud - "Oh, you're not looking at the HIDDEN meaning in that scripture!" Yikes. Where was this 'hidden meaning' 50 years ago when I started engaging Christians and clergy on this subject? Not one priest, pastor, parson, or minister ever made this claim. They simply walked away muttering about how I was 'taking it out of context'......
No, I don’t think wacky fringe groups are reliable. Nevertheless, the majority is not necessarily correct…

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and[b]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-14

Obviously, Matthew didn’t consider the passage of Isaiah 7:14 to have “hidden“ meaning, but believed the it accurately applied to the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
Therefore, I do.


Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated,
“God with us.”
Matthew 1:18-23
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Exactly - the new age Christian definition of hell. So we essentially agree on the main message - "Worship me or suffer!" The verses contain both the Bribe, and the Threat.
Someone reaching out to save those who are in trouble, headed for destruction is… offering help. Implying bribe or threat is nonsense.
 
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Laniakea

Not of this world
Proof means something is a proven fact.
There is no proof that anything in any religious scriptures is true, since there is no way to prove that God exists.

I believe that the Baha'i Writings are true because they were written in the pen of Baha'u'llah, who I believe was a Messenger of God.
By contrast, Jesus did not write the Bible. The Bible was written by various authors, none of whom knew Jesus personally.

Why would it matter exactly who was holding the pen that put the words on the page as to whether the words are true or not? Jesus may not have personally written the words concerning Himself, but those who were with Him did. Why would that make the words less true, or not true at all?

Also, how do you know Baha'u'llah actually wrote the Baha'i writings? And even if there was proof he did, how does that make his words true
 

Laniakea

Not of this world

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why would it matter exactly who was holding the pen that put the words on the page as to whether the words are true or not? Jesus may not have personally written the words concerning Himself, but those who were with Him did. Why would that make the words less true, or not true at all?
It matters because those who knew Jesus did not write the NT. Even if the disciples had written the NT, there is no way they could have memorized what Jesus had said and written it down decades later. Obviously, that means we can never know exactly what Jesus said.

Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns. A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel.

An Introduction To The Gospels | From Jesus To Christ ... - PBS

Also, how do you know Baha'u'llah actually wrote the Baha'i writings?
The original tablets of Baha'u'llah written in Persian and Arabic were stamped by Him, with His official seal. They were safeguarded by the early believers and they are now stored at the Bahá'í World Center in Haifa, Israel.

LONDON — The British Museum is showing rarely-seen original handwriting of Baha’u’llah, as well as other archival items associated with His life, in commemoration of the 200th anniversary of His birth, which was celebrated around the world on 21 and 22 October.
And even if there was proof he did, how does that make his words true
How do you know that any words recorded in the Bible are true?

I believe that whatever Baha'u'llah wrote is true because I believe that He was a Manifestation of God.
I believe that whatever Jesus said is true because I believe that He was a Manifestation of God.

I also believe that what Baha'u'llah wrote about Jesus is true.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
 

Laniakea

Not of this world
It matters because those who knew Jesus did not write the NT. Even if the disciples had written the NT, there is no way they could have memorized what Jesus had said and written it down decades later. Obviously, that means we can never know exactly what Jesus said.

Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns....

Of course! Different people are going to have different viewpoints, and therefore differing concerns. A physician (Luke) is going to see things differently than a former tax collector (Matthew), for example. That's actually an advantage to having 4 different Gospel accounts.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
By showing you which prophecies were fulfilled. Here's a list of 351 of them: 351 Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled In Jesus Christ | New Testament Christians.Com

If you want to keep it simpler, here is a more detailed look at the main 40 fulfillments: https://jewsforjesus.org/learn/top-40-most-helpful-messianic-prophecies
I believe that Jesus was the Messiah and He fulfilled many OT prophecies, but I do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies for the messianic age. That is why Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah they are waiting for.

“The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally.”

Some Answered Questions, p. 111

To continue reading: 26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Note that

Most modern scholars hold that it was written anonymously[8] in the last quarter of the first century by a male Jew who stood on the margin between traditional and nontraditional Jewish values and who was familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time. [source]​
Yes, Mt is the most Jewish gospel but it's relation to contemporary Judaism is complex. There are also signs of separation from Jewish synagogue and it's leadership at that time.

While this gospel may be the most representative of the first Christians it was also written by a non-eyewitness, in the style of a legend, copying much from the pro-Gentile Mark.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
It doesn’t appear that they were disappointed after His death once they saw Jesus alive and resurrected from the dead. On the contrary, they became emboldened with joy in sharing the good news about Jesus, dispute threats of persecution or death to themselves.
They (or anyone in direct contact with them) didn't write anything about the good news. I doubt they experienced it. It came from a different source. A source that tries to show the first disciples as not getting it, not having faith etc.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Me too. Seems crazy that anyone would refuse the love and eternal hope and freedom Jesus offers.
Seems crazy that anyone would refuse the love and eternal hope and freedom that the used car salesmen down the street offers you in return for buying a lemon, but he offers much the same amount of reliable evidence that he can fulfill his promises as what Jesus does - ie none at all in my view.
 

Ajax

Active Member
Condemned to self-destruction, everlasting separation from God the Creator and only Source of life, light, love, goodness, beauty, joy, peace, etc.
....and about 2.5 million unnecessary killings (excluding the flood) in the Old Testament..:)
 
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