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What is your opinion on internet privacy?

blackout

Violet.
Always best to keep your passwords to yourSelf.

As well your bank account, debts, investments and legal autonomy...
but,
that's just me.

I have no patience for monogamy drama and jealousy either.

Life is far too short.
(a thing I wish I had better understood before)
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Perhaps its not what you intended to say but a matter of perception. I backed out and actually read both of you and Sunstone's response. It is clearly not your intent to convert people to your value system however I do see Sunstone's point. Majority of your debate is using in large paragraphs, your own experiences. I mean that is fine but I guess in this so called debate continuously using your experiences just to counter another point of view just amounts to personal experiences--no right or wrong just simply as you people say a draw.

If I understand you correctly Kathryn monogamous couple should share information with each other and if suspicion is how you say evident, then you have a right to investigate odd behavior that is atypical. If I am wrong please correct me without large paragraph of course.

I believe Sunstone's point was if his privacy is investigated by his spouse without his approval he will divorce. I believe in so many words he explained why. What works for him works for him and what works for you works for you.

Luckily for me my wife respects my privacy. If I set my phone down I don't have to worry about her going through my phone. Or my computer being looked though since I leave it open. Like Sunstone I would have a problem if she did, but unlike Sunstone I wouldn't divorce her over it. I think how people view privacy. There is no single representation for all the people.

Without burdening you with a large paragraph of course, here's the short skinny:

I made it clear numerous times that the dynamics in every relationship are different - in fact, even in relationships in our individual lives, with different people those dynamics change.

I made it clear that there's no black or white in this debate - that every person and every relationship brings a different set of circumstances.

I said what my personal beliefs are, based on my personal observations. Sunstone said the same. I was fine with that - and then he brought in, as usual, the personal innuendos and insults, starting with "You're always trying to convert people to your value system." Bull ****. So I called his hand on it.

That was my issue with him - not what his personal opinion is as applied to his personal life. That's his own business and frankly, I couldn't care less how he lines out his life or relationships.

Hope that clarifies my position.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Always best to keep your passwords to yourSelf.

As well your bank account, debts, investments and legal autonomy...
but,
that's just me.

I have no patience for monogamy drama and jealousy either.

Life is far too short.
(a thing I wish I had better understood before)

Amen, sister. That's why my husband and I have separate bank accounts for our "spending money." (We do have a joint account for vacations or special projects, but there's not usually a whole lot of money in that one.)

Keeps things cleaner and less complicated.
 

blackout

Violet.
Amen, sister. That's why my husband and I have separate bank accounts for our "spending money." (We do have a joint account for vacations or special projects, but there's not usually a whole lot of money in that one.)

Keeps things cleaner and less complicated.


Legal marriage alone is WAY to much complication for me.
Shared mortgages. no.
Shared contracts. no.
Shared passwords. no.

Shared love. yes.

Snooping, lies, jealousy, consistant unexplained weird behavior... no.
And I'm not gunna waste much time sorting out any one of these.
No legal entanglements = I'm not happy, we're done.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I want to clarify - I'm opposed to "snooping." I am NOT opposed to gathering information when things get weird, so that you can make informed decisions. Knowledge is power.

The difference is this - snooping is what an insecure, jealous, controlling person does on a regular basis, regardless of the actions of the other person. Funny thing is, when a person is wired together this way, they often create the exact scenario they are so worried about - because the other person eventually has enough and wants out. A person who snoops would snoop on the most innocent person - snooping is their modus operandum and doesn't hinge on the actions of the other person at all.

Gathering information, on the other hand, is what a RESPONSIBLE person does when they notice signs of trouble in the relationship. It starts with attempting honest dialogue and is motivated by love and concern - not jealousy and insecurity. One of my life mottos is "Seek first to understand" and this falls into that category. BEFORE JUDGING and destroying a relationship, it's better in my opinion to have your facts straight. If your partner is hiding things and not shooting straight with you, you usually know it. You can only make good decisions when you truly know what you're dealing with. If they won't tell you - you have the right, and the responsibility, to determine the truth. Sometimes that truth is contained in a computer.

And sometimes that truth may surprise you. It would be a shame to simply walk away from a long term relationship with a person you love, if the real problem is, for instance, actually health related, or hinges on something that YOU can correct - and the relationship can be saved.

It boils down to what is motivating you to look for information.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Well there I disagree. If things get weird why bring it up?

Well, let's see...

Kids, pets, $100,000 equity in a home, retirement plans, IRAs, vehicle loans, benefits packages...the list goes on.

Long term relationships usually involve a lot of investments, both material and emotional, from both partners. Not so easy to dismantle - and I certainly wouldn't just walk away because things "get weird" without knowing fully what the issues were that I might have to deal with.

But hey, that's just me.
 
Well, let's see...

Kids, pets, $100,000 equity in a home, retirement plans, IRAs, vehicle loans, benefits packages...the list goes on.

Long term relationships usually involve a
lot of investments, both material and emotional, from both partners. Not so easy to dismantle - and I certainly wouldn't just walk away because things "get weird" without knowing fully what the issues were that I might have to deal with.

But hey, that's just me.

Everybody doesn't have the same life as you do.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Everybody doesn't have the same life as you do.

Oh my gosh. :thud:

I KNOW this, Hyper - that's why I've repeatedly said that every situation is different.

However - the longer people are together, the more they build together and invest in together. It's not so easy to throw away all you've invested, or risk such loss (both financial and emotional) just because you get a weird feeling and you have some sort of moral value which prohibits you from trying to discern what's going on by gathering facts.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
People who go around looking for problems, will find them, one way or the other. At the very least, they'll bring about the exact problem they were worried about.

Also, the problem with snooping, is that if you find something, it's rather hypocritical to bring up, as your snooping is a breach of trust in itself.

Besides, if you half a brain, if something is going on with the other person, you should know it without having to snoop around their crap.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hyper and Kilgore -

Do you think there's any difference between someone who is basically a suspicious person - who would snoop regardless of who they were with, and someone who has trusted someone for years and invested all they have into a relationship they think is open and honest, and then begins to realize that things aren't adding up?

Hyper - LONG PARAGRAPH ALERT - so please quit reading if it's going to be too stressful for you.

I was married for ten years to a man I loved. We got along great - our personalities really clicked. We bought our dreamhome and filled it with children. We built a very successful business together. We were very active in our church and in our business community, and had a wide circle of good friends, threw great parties together, traveled, and had a very good life - or so I thought.

One day, we were in the office together getting ready for a staff meeting, and because someone else was at my desk momentarily, I went into his office to print off a document. When I moved the mouse, his email opened up (and no, I wasn't snooping - that was the last thing on my mind - I was running around trying to get ready for a meeting and at least 15 people were milling around in the office). Lo and behold - there was an email from a woman and it was obviously, blatantly sexual in nature. It was obvious that they had been together several times. It was also obvious that this wasn't a serious relationship.

You know the old expression "The rug was pulled out from under me?" That's exactly how I felt. I did have the presence of mind to print the letter before walking into the meeting. Believe me, my head was spinning. This was completely out of left field.

After the meeting, I confronted him. Do you think he told me the truth? Of course not - he told me "I've never done this before, I don't know what got into me, it was an accident, I love you, she means nothing to me, it's just my luck - the first time I've ever done anything like this, yada yada yada..."

Well, I went home - and got to "snooping" thru our computer, phone records, bank accounts, etc. I found out so much stuff, I could hardly believe it. Multiple women, money gone from several accounts, a gambling habit, and falsified tax returns, just for starters. Hell, he was meeting women online, hooking up with them at casinos - all while I thought he was out selling real estate.

Meanwhile, I'd been working my *** off and raising a family. Never been unfaithful in my life, though of course I'd had opportunities. Don't we all.

It's a good thing I "snooped." I was able to minimize my losses and get my life back in order in a much more informed and orderly way. If I'd just walked out, I would have lost even more. Snooping saved me tens of thousands of dollars, and I needed the information I gathered for leverage - and for mine and my children's security and well being. In other words, I nailed him - and he deserved it.

Today (eight years later) he lives with his parents and works at Lowes (this was after a stint selling coffee makers at Bed Bath and Beyond). I'm sure he's still paying back taxes, and will be for a long time. Frankly, I'm surprised he didn't go to jail.

I'm happily married, my kids are all doing great, and my life is better than it ever was with him. And I don't regret gathering the information I needed.

That's not snooping in my opinion - it's self preservation.
 
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blackout

Violet.
It's so much easier to just stay economically autonomous in the first place.

File your own tax returns,
as a single person.

Anyway, obviously your x didn't really hide anything.
You were able to "snoop" just by looking through stuff
you may well have been going through
(and probably should have been going through)
on a regular basis anyway.
Tax records, phone bills, bank accounts...
and if your computers were non pass coded, :shrug:

He obviously wasn't working too hard to keep his business private.


gawd. I would never trust anyone besides mySelf
(or a hired tax specialist)
to even touch my taxes.

You do yours. I do mine.
no problems for me.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
It's so much easier to just stay economically autonomous in the first place.

File your own tax returns,
as a single person.

Anyway, obviously your x didn't really hide anything.
You were able to "snoop" just by looking through stuff
you may well have been going through
(and probably should have been going through)
on a regular basis anyway.
Tax records, phone bills, bank accounts...
and if your computers were non pass coded, :shrug:
He obviously wasn't working too hard to keep his business private.

Falsified tax returns (not the ones I thought were turned in), his cell phone records (not mine), and bank accounts that I didn't know existed - some even opened in MY name (I guess I could have raised hell with Bank of America, but instead I just took the money out). Money that I thought went to pay property taxes actually just dissappeared (gambling) - rather than to pay the taxes.

As for the computer, I had to run a lot of searches and dig around quite a bit to find this information. It wasn't just sitting in his email. I managed to find stuff in the history by running searches on words.

There's a lot more - but it's tiresome to write it all out. It was a pretty bad time in my life. I ended up going through every drawer, nook, and cranny of our house, his office, his car, his files, the whole nine yards - and found quite a bit of stuff that I can assure you he never wanted or expected me to find.

Some would call that snooping. I call it "making informed decisions."
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
My husband and I file our taxes jointly, and we share some bank accounts, but we also keep a lot of things separate.

It's a lot easier now than it was even eight years ago, though, to keep an eye on things. Technology makes it easier. For instance, online banking is a lot better now than it was in 2002.

It's a lot harder to hide things now. I guess that's a good thing.

The best thing though is to just live an honest life. Then you don't have to worry about hiding things. Oh - and find someone honest to share that life.

Regarding my ex husband - I knew he was a dishonest person several years into the marriage, but I guess I was in denial. I figured our relationship was so fun and good together that he'd never do that sort of thing to ME. But - I found out that a jerk is a jerk is a jerk.

I'm not gullible any more, that's for sure. And I demand accountability and honesty, and transparency in a relationship. I'm glad I'm with someone with the same expectations and values now.
 

blackout

Violet.
Falsified tax returns (not the ones I thought were turned in), his cell phone records (not mine), and bank accounts that I didn't know existed - opened in MY name (I guess I could have raised hell with Bank of America). Money that I thought went to pay property taxes actually just dissappeared (gambling) - rather than to pay the taxes.'

As for the computer, I had to run a lot of searches and dig around quite a bit to find this information. It wasn't just sitting in his email. I managed to find stuff in the history by running searches on words.

Some would call all of that snooping.

Well at that point, you obviously weren't worried about losing him over snooping.

I agree, when you have that much practically invested in/with another person
it is Self preservation and protection, to find out the ways you have been put at risk.
Financially and otherwise. You would be stupid NOT to cover yourSelf.

So much unessary drama though.
WHY do we entwine our debts and finances and taxes and investments the way we do?
So much risk, and potential stress.

The relational part, you just end.
And hopefully you get off without a disease.

Have sex just ONCE outside the agreements of our relationship
(whatever agreements those may be)
and that's enough to end it. right there.
Without all the other legal contractual garbage
the rest of the drama
becomes unecessary.

I'm too old for any of this.
and too tired.
too tired to snoop.
too tired to argue over finances.
too tired to play mind games.

People seem to love ownership.
I prefer freedom and autonomy of Self.

All these scenarios make me hyperventalate.

I still haven't managed to pull of my own damned divorce.
it is so sad.

:(

"Fool me once..."

I would not do this again.

Knowing what I do now,
I would not have done it ever.

With anyone.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
UV you hit the nail on the head when you said,

Well at that point, you obviously weren't worried about losing him over snooping.

That's what I've been trying to get across through this entire thread. He was already lying to me and hiding things. I knew it - I just didn't know the details. At THIS point, it's not snooping - it's self preservation.

Like I've said about a brazilian times now on this thread (not aiming this at you, UV) - once you know a person is hiding things and lying, you're not "breaking the trust" in the relationship - it's already broken. You're just gathering information you probably NEED to gather.
 

blackout

Violet.
UV you hit the nail on the head when you said,



That's what I've been trying to get across through this entire thread. He was already lying to me and hiding things. I knew it - I just didn't know the details. At THIS point, it's not snooping - it's self preservation.

Like I've said about a brazilian times now on this thread (not aiming this at you, UV) - once you know a person is hiding things and lying, you're not "breaking the trust" in the relationship - it's already broken. You're just gathering information you probably NEED to gather.

Only in so much as your lives are legally and financially entwined.

The less so... the less gathering and information necessary. :shrug:
The less "protection" you need.
The easier it is to simply walk away.

This I think, is where peoples' scenarios become very different.

The example of the OP in this thread
bears no resemblance whatsoever
to anything we have been talking about here.

It seems to me some people just don't want the apples and the oranges in the same bowl.
As you said yourSelf, "snooping" and "Self Preservation and Protection"
are not the same thing at all.
The thread really, was about snooping.
 
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