What is your stance on free will?

[Thief]

It is an illusion. I have no more ability to choose what I do then does a bouyant pebble caught in quick current.

Neither does anyone else. Although they believe they do. Which is the illusion part. Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!

buoyant pebble?......

Try saying that to a judge when you stand guilty.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

buoyant pebble?......

Try saying that to a judge when you stand guilty.

What alone can be our doctrine? That no one gives a man his qualities — neither God, nor society, nor his parents and ancestors, nor he himself. (The nonsense of the last idea was taught as "intelligible freedom" by Kant — and perhaps by Plato.) No one is responsible for a man's being here at all, for his being such-and-such, or for his being in these circumstances or in this environment. The fatality of his existence is not to be disentangled from the fatality of all that has been and will be. Human beings are not the effect of some special purpose, or will, or end; nor are they a medium through which society can realize an "ideal of humanity" or an "ideal of happiness" or an "ideal of morality." It is absurd to wish to devolve one's essence on some end or other. We have invented the concept of "end": in reality there is no end.

A man is necessary, a man is a piece of fatefulness, a man belongs to the whole, a man is in the whole; there is nothing that could judge, measure, compare, or sentence his being, for that would mean judging, measuring, comparing, or sentencing the whole. But there is nothing besides the whole. That nobody is held responsible any longer, that the mode of being may not be traced back to a primary cause, that the world does not form a unity either as a sensorium or as "spirit" — that alone is the great liberation. With that idea alone we absolve our becoming of any guilt. The concept of "God" was until now the greatest objection to existence. We deny God, we deny the responsibility that originates from God: and thereby we redeem the world.

Nietzsche : Twilight of the Idols

Feel free to disagree.

 

[Willamena]

Perception. We don't all "observe" the world the same way.

In what way?

"there is nothing standing between that decision that was made unconsciously and the moment of awareness of it."

As I pointed out, time for one as the neurons fire and communicate and make a decision that you then become consciously aware of. So the decision has been made, before consciously know about it. This is a point I have been trying to make to you. Your saying right here your NOT "consciously" aware of making it and what is free in that? So your weren't really consciously 'freely' making the decision. That is part of the illusion.

No, I clearly said you are aware of decisions that have been made.

Edit: I've accepted the premise that we are not yet aware of decisions when they are made, and I even supported it. As all decisions are made this way, I am waiting to hear how the terms "free" or "unfree" are made to apply to the process.

 

[Willamena]

It would be different when you see the will as our true nature, in prison by our mind/logic/thoughts.
And this make our will not free, and the only way to free yourself is by walking the path of true to unlightment.
Humanity created culture and forgot and lost there nature.
But this is my opinion.

There's more truth in that than apparent typos would indicate.

 

[Thief]

Nietzsche : Twilight of the Idols

Feel free to disagree.

And by my freewill.....I do.
(saved the link for further review)

I enjoy a good read now and then.
But I am not given to pretty words.

Denial is the evidence of freewill.
What? shall you twist my arm and bend my knee?
I think not!......I deny thee!

 

[Sha'irullah]

It seems many people confuse human will with the ability to make decisions. If we had free will we would never have decisions so it is irrelevant upon whether we make a choice or not it is refuted by the fact we are given so many choices to begin with. All decisions we make are limited and even if we have an unlimited amount of choices you cannot profess to have free will as choices are given. Decisions are more appropriate as although we are able to decide the nature of a choice decisions are not supported by choices alone.
Free will must be looked upon in physical capabilities and cognitive capabilities in cohesion. Can we make the choice to create from nothing? No. Although it is capable of occurring in the imagination(cognitive abilities) it is not capable of being produced by means of physicality. You cannot drop one to use the other as support.
And do not think that metaphysical claims make things any better as metaphysics in relation to the mind is not something established with physical evidence.

 

[Ouroboros]

Computers make decisions too.

If ice cream is an option then
if have a favorite ice cream then pick favorite ice cream
else pick random ice cream from options
.

Computer Free Will.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

How would you define freewill? Is free will a reality or an illusion of false power fostered by an awareness of self and the choices we think we make consciously? I'm in the con freewill camp. What about you and why do you believe as you do?

So what compelled you to create this thread?

 

[Skwim]

So what compelled you to create this thread?

Your evasion of ZenMonkey's request aside (might want to correct your oversight here) the ability or inability to identify the cause of an act has no bearing on it's deterministic nature.

 

[Thief]

It seems many people confuse human will with the ability to make decisions. If we had free will we would never have decisions so it is irrelevant upon whether we make a choice or not it is refuted by the fact we are given so many choices to begin with. All decisions we make are limited and even if we have an unlimited amount of choices you cannot profess to have free will as choices are given. Decisions are more appropriate as although we are able to decide the nature of a choice decisions are not supported by choices alone.
Free will must be looked upon in physical capabilities and cognitive capabilities in cohesion. Can we make the choice to create from nothing? No. Although it is capable of occurring in the imagination(cognitive abilities) it is not capable of being produced by means of physicality. You cannot drop one to use the other as support.
And do not think that metaphysical claims make things any better as metaphysics in relation to the mind is not something established with physical evidence.

You must have skipped my previous post....or perhaps I could expand a bit.

You mentioned imagination...as in dreamscape?

What if the next life is nothing but dreamscape....and you can't wake up.
That 'choice' having been removed by death.....dead men don't wake up.

So you go on with your mind and heart.....in your dreams.....
but you have to share them with others.
otherwise, you would be alone in your dreams.

What if your friend in the afterlife doesn't like the dream you are sharing?
He prays for rain....and you want sunshine.
What if he likes the snow and you don't?

What if the spirit you are with, doesn't like....you?

Then what?....wake up?....say it ain't real?
Like we do here at the forum?
Just make denial....and turn of the current.....?.....

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Your evasion of ZenMonkey's request aside (might want to correct your oversight here) the ability or inability to identify the cause of an act has no bearing on it's deterministic nature.

It was just a simple rhetorical question. What compelled you to think otherwise?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

As to what I believe about free will? I believe that some are correct in asserting that they operate under the delusion of volition.

Free will is paradoxically not a given. One must attain it, only those who achieve awareness and expansion of the ego can ever achieve free will. Those who do so, achieve theosis and with awareness and expanded egos possibilities open up.

Of course you don't have true volition or as some call it, True Will.

True Will is an achievement, and only the Elect have any hope of achieving it.

The Kingdom of Heaven is taken by force and only the violent can gain it.

 

[jchristopher]

How would you define freewill? Is free will a reality or an illusion of false power fostered by an awareness of self and the choices we think we make consciously? I'm in the con freewill camp. What about you and why do you believe as you do?

I define it as man's ability to choose and act for himself. But man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

 

[VocoInDubium]

buoyant pebble?......

Try saying that to a judge when you stand guilty.

While you are correct in how other people see the pebble is this an argument?

 

[Skwim]

It was just a simple rhetorical question. What compelled you to think otherwise?

You gave no reason to think so.
A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point about the subject at hand.

Zenmonkey asked three reasonable questions.

1) How would you define freewill?
​

Your rhetorical question, "So what compelled you to create this thread?" hardly makes a point as to your definition of freewill.

2) Is free will a reality or an illusion of false power fostered by an awareness of self and the choices we think we make consciously?
​

Your rhetorical question, "So what compelled you to create this thread?" hardly makes a point as to the the nature of freewill.

3) I'm in the con freewill camp. What about you and why do you believe as you do?
​

Your rhetorical question, "So what compelled you to create this thread?" hardly makes a point regarding your belief.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

You gave no reason to think so.
A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point about the subject at hand.

Zenmonkey asked three reasonable questions.

1) How would you define freewill?
​

Your rhetorical question, "So what compelled you to create this thread?" hardly makes a point as to your definition of freewill.

2) Is free will a reality or an illusion of false power fostered by an awareness of self and the choices we think we make consciously?
​

Your rhetorical question, "So what compelled you to create this thread?" hardly makes a point as to the the nature of freewill.

3) I'm in the con freewill camp. What about you and why do you believe as you do?
​

Your rhetorical question, "So what compelled you to create this thread?" hardly makes a point regarding your belief.

I already stated what I believe. And I agree with you. Of course you have no free will.

 

[shawn001]

In what way?


No, I clearly said you are aware of decisions that have been made.

Edit: I've accepted the premise that we are not yet aware of decisions when they are made, and I even supported it. As all decisions are made this way, I am waiting to hear how the terms "free" or "unfree" are made to apply to the process.

"In what way"

We all "see" and "react" to the world differently based on our senses, what we learn and who we are down to our genes and those perceptions influence our decisions and observations.

"As University of Illinois psychology professor Dan Simons reminds us, "Looking isn't the same as seeing."

"I've accepted the premise that we are not yet aware of decisions when they are made"

Its not a premise, its a studied and tested observation and a big part of how the brain physically works.

"we are not yet aware of decisions when they are made"

"I am waiting to hear how the terms "free" or "unfree" are made to apply to the process"

Think hard on this, if your not "aware consciously" the "I" am making the decision or choice, how "free" are you in making the decision or choice?

 

[Willamena]

"In what way"

We all "see" and "react" to the world differently based on our senses, what we learn and who we are down to our genes and those perceptions influence our decisions and observations.

"As University of Illinois psychology professor Dan Simons reminds us, "Looking isn't the same as seeing."

Interpretation isn't the same as perception. Still, we humans have bodies that pretty much operate the same way for all (a common biology). A banana for me is a banana for you, else I could not pass the banana.

"I've accepted the premise that we are not yet aware of decisions when they are made"

Its not a premise, its a studied and tested observation and a big part of how the brain physically works.

You have used the studied and tested observation as a premise for argument, as have I.

"we are not yet aware of decisions when they are made"

"I am waiting to hear how the terms "free" or "unfree" are made to apply to the process"

Think hard on this, if your not "aware consciously" the "I" am making the decision or choice, how "free" are you in making the decision or choice?

As this is actually how decisions are made, there is also nothing "unfree" about it. Consciousness is nothing but passive awareness--it cannot make decisions, it is only "us" watching a show that has already been set (reality) unfold before our eyes. That includes what goes on in our brains.

In my (humanistic) view, the "freedom" of free will is associated with agency, which is attained in ownership of thoughts, words and actions deemed to be "mine" (done by me). As long as it was my "unconscious mind" that made the decision, it is no less-freely mine.

 

[Thief]

Interpretation isn't the same as perception. Still, we humans have bodies that pretty much operate the same way for all (a common biology). A banana for me is a banana for you, else I could not pass the banana.


You have used the studied and tested observation as a premise for argument, as have I.


As this is actually how decisions are made, there is also nothing "unfree" about it. Consciousness is nothing but passive awareness--it cannot make decisions, it is only "us" watching a show that has already been set (reality) unfold before our eyes. That includes what goes on in our brains.

In my (humanistic) view, the "freedom" of free will is associated with agency, which is attained in ownership of thoughts, words and actions deemed to be "mine" (done by me). As long as it was my "unconscious mind" that made the decision, it is no less-freely mine.

Well if the outcome is the same....no matter what.....

I still say you can't twist my arm that hard.
If I want to say it ain't so....it ain't so.

Freedom is then what?.....my 'better' perception?
God is free more so than anyone else?

Likely so.....or...

Maybe God isn't free.....

 

[VocoInDubium]

buoyant pebble?......

Try saying that to a judge when you stand guilty.

Free will is what it is despite what others judge.