"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

[John1.12]

Neither did any of the NT writers.

There are as many daft views as scholars .

 

[John1.12]

Not through a surface reading.

yes most ' skim read ' .

 

[John1.12]

There is no real “face value” when dealing with linguistic, cultural, snd temporal differences within texts.

There is if you believe its from God .

 

[John1.12]

There you go again, Barry. So tell me, when did God appoint you as His spiritual advisor and tell you it was your job to say who's saved and who isn't? Talk about egotistical!

Your obviously missing the point . NO one is saved today apart from Believing the Gospel. Believing the Gospel is the prerequisite to being saved . 1 cor 1.21 . 1 cor 15 .1,-4 . Rom 10 .9 . Eph 1.13 .
So my point still stands. According to the Scriptures 100% of saved people believed the same Gospel. ( 1 cor 15, 1-4 ) Thats the very basic essential understanding of salvation in the NT .

 

[John1.12]

And God still does. Perhaps you'd better bring Him up to speed.

My point is ,once a person understands fully what Mormons believe the odds of any Christian believing that they are Christian would be dramatically reduced . Some Christians even think Islam teaches the same God.

 

[John1.12]

And God still does. Perhaps you'd better bring Him up to speed.

I don't believe you understand 1 cor 1.15 .1-4 .?

 

[Soapy]

Again ,why is all that necessary ? I can assess the text myself by reading it .What we have is a text fully available for us all to read and your saying, " hey but there's a dude from old who is really clever and he thinks....." I can then reply " but I know a dude that's really smart and he says ...." . This isn't rocket science, where we need to go to rocket scientists to understand rocket science.

I have said similar to others before. Any text from outside of the common scriptures used to support the fallacy of trinity can negated by any kind of text from atheists, Muslims, fantasists, nutcases, honest mistakenists, etc.

The only text that counts, the only commonality that can be agreed or disagreed on is from the scriptures that we all read.

Many people have told me to go read the communica of trinitae and see what saint x and saint y said. And I reply that I suggest they go read the gospel of Thomas.... they say that the gospel of Thomas has been debunked.... and I reply: “touché”!

But seriously, what we need to do is challenge DISPUTABLE verses in the scriptures... verses that DO NOT STACK UP in light of the greater qualifiers.

For instance, Trinitarians have attempted many times to, and succeeded in, ADDING and MODIFYING text in the New Testament scriptures in order to ATTEMPT TO JUSTIFY the trinity ideology.

Now, can anyone believe in a doctrine where it’s protagonists create DISINGENUOUS ‘proofs’?

And WHY? If trinity was truth then there would be no need to FALSE PROOFS.

The verse in Colossians where it is claimed that Jesus created all things is one such anomaly. Does it not say all over the scriptures that:

• GOD created ALL BY HIMSELF

But if ALL THREE of the trinity CREATED then how can that be ‘ALL BY HIMSELF’?

But if only Jesus Created then HOW CAN an undivided UNIT claim that only ONE PART of its indivisible unity do something away from the other two... AND further more, Jesus tells us CLEARLY that:

• ‘The son can do NOTHING by himself but ONLY what he sees the FATHER do’

So we have a conundrum. TRINITY says Jesus created all things ... and JESUS says he does not do anything that he doesn’t FIRST SEE THE FATHER DO!

AND... the title, ‘FATHER’, means:

• “He who CREATES...”
• “He who brings into being...”
• “He who GIVES LIFE...”

So:

1. Who CREATED the world: Father
2. Who brought living things into being: Father
3. Who gave life to mankind: Father

Jesus Christ is at no time called ‘Father: Creator; life giver...’ EXCEPT at the end of time AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT where he GRANTS ETERNAL LIFE to those whom he chooses as worthy for HIS kingdom. Therefore, to these ones, Jesus SHALL BE their Spiritual ETERNAL FATHER (Isaiah 9:6).

And notice also from Isaiah 9:6 that the Son shall be ‘PRINCE of peace’. So, if the son / Jesus, is PRINCE of Peace.... who then is KING of Peace?

 

[John1.12]

I have said similar to others before. Any text from outside of the common scriptures used to support the fallacy of trinity can negated by any kind of text from atheists, Muslims, fantasists, nutcases, honest mistakenists, etc.

The only text that counts, the only commonality that can be agreed or disagreed on is from the scriptures that we all read.

Many people have told me to go read the communica of trinitae and see what saint x and saint y said. And I reply that I suggest they go read the gospel of Thomas.... they say that the gospel of Thomas has been debunked.... and I reply: “touché”!

But seriously, what we need to do is challenge DISPUTABLE verses in the scriptures... verses that DO NOT STACK UP in light of the greater qualifiers.

For instance, Trinitarians have attempted many times to, and succeeded in, ADDING and MODIFYING text in the New Testament scriptures in order to ATTEMPT TO JUSTIFY the trinity ideology.

Now, can anyone believe in a doctrine where it’s protagonists create DISINGENUOUS ‘proofs’?

And WHY? If trinity was truth then there would be no need to FALSE PROOFS.

The verse in Colossians where it is claimed that Jesus created all things is one such anomaly. Does it not say all over the scriptures that:

• GOD created ALL BY HIMSELF

But if ALL THREE of the trinity CREATED then how can that be ‘ALL BY HIMSELF’?

But if only Jesus Created then HOW CAN an undivided UNIT claim that only ONE PART of its indivisible unity do something away from the other two... AND further more, Jesus tells us CLEARLY that:

• ‘The son can do NOTHING by himself but ONLY what he sees the FATHER do’

So we have a conundrum. TRINITY says Jesus created all things ... and JESUS says he does not do anything that he doesn’t FIRST SEE THE FATHER DO!

AND... the title, ‘FATHER’, means:

• “He who CREATES...”
• “He who brings into being...”
• “He who GIVES LIFE...”

So:

1. Who CREATED the world: Father
2. Who brought living things into being: Father
3. Who gave life to mankind: Father

Jesus Christ is at no time called ‘Father: Creator; life giver...’ EXCEPT at the end of time AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT where he GRANTS ETERNAL LIFE to those whom he chooses as worthy for HIS kingdom. Therefore, to these ones, Jesus SHALL BE their Spiritual ETERNAL FATHER (Isaiah 9:6).

And notice also from Isaiah 9:6 that the Son shall be ‘PRINCE of peace’. So, if the son / Jesus, is PRINCE of Peace.... who then is KING of Peace?

Jesus says he will raise himself from the dead. A head of time . John 2.19 . Then we find a verse that the Father raised Jesus. Then another verse says the Holy Spirit raised Jesus.

 

[John1.12]

I have said similar to others before. Any text from outside of the common scriptures used to support the fallacy of trinity can negated by any kind of text from atheists, Muslims, fantasists, nutcases, honest mistakenists, etc.

The only text that counts, the only commonality that can be agreed or disagreed on is from the scriptures that we all read.

Many people have told me to go read the communica of trinitae and see what saint x and saint y said. And I reply that I suggest they go read the gospel of Thomas.... they say that the gospel of Thomas has been debunked.... and I reply: “touché”!

But seriously, what we need to do is challenge DISPUTABLE verses in the scriptures... verses that DO NOT STACK UP in light of the greater qualifiers.

For instance, Trinitarians have attempted many times to, and succeeded in, ADDING and MODIFYING text in the New Testament scriptures in order to ATTEMPT TO JUSTIFY the trinity ideology.

Now, can anyone believe in a doctrine where it’s protagonists create DISINGENUOUS ‘proofs’?

And WHY? If trinity was truth then there would be no need to FALSE PROOFS.

The verse in Colossians where it is claimed that Jesus created all things is one such anomaly. Does it not say all over the scriptures that:

• GOD created ALL BY HIMSELF

But if ALL THREE of the trinity CREATED then how can that be ‘ALL BY HIMSELF’?

But if only Jesus Created then HOW CAN an undivided UNIT claim that only ONE PART of its indivisible unity do something away from the other two... AND further more, Jesus tells us CLEARLY that:

• ‘The son can do NOTHING by himself but ONLY what he sees the FATHER do’

So we have a conundrum. TRINITY says Jesus created all things ... and JESUS says he does not do anything that he doesn’t FIRST SEE THE FATHER DO!

AND... the title, ‘FATHER’, means:

• “He who CREATES...”
• “He who brings into being...”
• “He who GIVES LIFE...”

So:

1. Who CREATED the world: Father
2. Who brought living things into being: Father
3. Who gave life to mankind: Father

Jesus Christ is at no time called ‘Father: Creator; life giver...’ EXCEPT at the end of time AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT where he GRANTS ETERNAL LIFE to those whom he chooses as worthy for HIS kingdom. Therefore, to these ones, Jesus SHALL BE their Spiritual ETERNAL FATHER (Isaiah 9:6).

And notice also from Isaiah 9:6 that the Son shall be ‘PRINCE of peace’. So, if the son / Jesus, is PRINCE of Peace.... who then is KING of Peace?

You cannot get around Col 1 . Created ALL things . All things consist because of Jesus. And yes God created all alone . The Holy Spirit is involved in creation . As is the Father The conclusion is inevitable and unavoidable.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus says he will raise himself from the dead. A head of time . John 2.19 . Then we find a verse that the Father raised Jesus. Then another verse says the Holy Spirit raised Jesus.

I’m going to ask you to excuse your own error. Jesus DID NOT SAY that he would raise himself from the dead... And you yourself provided proof that that was not what he said.... unless you are going to say that Jesus is ALL THREE of the trinity God(s).
The relevant verses you must read through (John 2:16-22)

• “16To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”
• 17His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”
• 18The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
• 19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
• 20They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”
• 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
• 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus knew that after he died there would be a diminishing of the belief in the testimony that he brought from the Father. He knew that ‘ZEAL for [the Father’s house] would fall away... So Jesus told the Jews that [when] they destroyed the ‘Zeal’ that he would raise it back up in three days.

And this is exactly what happened. After Jesus died many many believers wondered if Jesus was truly the messiah, the Saviour prophesied BY GOD and their zeal wavered or even wained.

Thence, after three days when Jesus was resurrected BY THE FATHER’s power of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus himself had used to raise Lazarus wherein Jesus PRAYED OPENLY for the Holy Spirit from the Father, publicly, so all nearby and in time to come, SHOULD WRONGFULLY BELIEVE THAT HE HIMSELF was the primary cause of Lazarus’ raising up....!!! Jesus glorified the Father that he, Jesus, was able to do this.

And, remember that Jesus ‘SWEATED BLOOD’ in the garden of Gethsemane while AGONISING over whether THE FATHER could indeed RAISE HIM BACK UP AGAIN.

Jesus did not agonise so much blood vessels in his body burst over whether HE, Jesus, could raise HIMSELF back up, did he? In fact Jesus CONTEMPLATED ‘a different way’... but brought himself back to righteous holiness in complying with the Will of the Father: ‘Father.....,Yet not my way but yours’.

The spirit of a man goes back to the creator of the spirit: the Father of Spirits: GOD. The spirit is dormant (we do not believe in GHOSTS... disembodied spirits that roam the earth!!) and indeed, as such, Jesus, is no different to any human being: one spirit; one body... the body without a spirit is dead (inert, goes into decay, dies) and hence GOD said that HE would not suffer to see the Son’s body decay:

• “But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.” (Acts 13:37)

And BECAUSE Jesus died, salvation from eternal death by the sin of Adam is destroyed fulfilling one of the many prophesies about the messiah:

• “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.“ (Acts 13:38-39)

Indeed, (I erred in the past saying David was not a prophet... I apologise):

• “But he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.“ (Acts 2;30-31)

Here, for sure, David prophesies that a HUMAN DESCENDANT from his loins would occupy his ‘spiritual’ (as opposed to physical) throne as God loved David more than any other patriarch (‘I have found my David’, says the lord God) but even so David sinned in killing a man and taking his wife as his own and blood was otherwise on his hands. So the messiah most definitely cannot be a SPIRIT SON OF GOD... an impossibly thing nor is the messiah a one third of God SEPARATE from the GOD he is one third of (a conundrum indeed!)

And, SON, .... why is it not understandable??? Son, means:

• ‘Any one who does the works of the Father’

Scriptures tells us, Jesus tells us this: he told some of the Jews that they were ‘Sons of their Father’ (to wit: Satan) because they were DOING THE WORKS OF SATAN - the FATHER of the lie. Now, for sure, who is going to say that Satan PROCREATED or CREATED or these Jews were ETERNALLY EXISTING Sons of devilry... of course not....!! Afterall, ADAM, in the day of his CREATION BY GOD and up until he sinned, was ‘SON OF GOD’. A MAN ‘Son of God’ who righteously followed the spirit of God until sin tempted him. And Jesus was created as ‘The Last Adam’ to replace the fallen first Adam just as many of the first children of the patriarchs fell to sin and another from ‘down the lineage’ was ‘brought up in position’ to replace the first: check them out:

• Cain - Seth
• Ishmael - Isaac
• Esau - Jacob
• Rueben - Joseph
• Eliab - David
• Amnon - Solomon
• Adam - Jesus

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The earliest text is 1 Thess. Written around 48 CE. Paul’s writings typically predate the gospels.

How did you come to choose "48 CE"? From Wikipedia:

The epistle is attributed to Paul the Apostle, and is addressed to the church in Thessalonica, in modern-day Greece. It is likely the first of Paul's letters, probably written by the end of AD 52. However, some scholars believe the Epistle to Galatians may have been written by AD 48.​

Kirby's earlier effort suggests ...

The epistle to the Thessalonians is certainly one of the most ancient Christian documents in existence. It is typically dated c. 50/51 CE. It is universally assented to be an authentic letter of Paul.​

Not that "around 48 CE" differs significantly from "around 52 CE," but I always find it interesting when someone gravitates towards an earlier date. One very real possibility is that you have newer information and, if so, I'd love to know the source.

 

[rational experiences]

O planet earth.
A God.
God by science stone products.

Man scientist said gods O planet earth theme owner is his conscious comparison by want to own.

O God status history owned immaculate spirit. As themed the son of god not named and secret a mystery of the mother space womb.

Holy immaculate.

Jesus was a reason why the baby son of man was sacrificed by the son of god actually.

Theme constantly burning gas spirit alight is not The constant. It is constantly burning.

Science constant is how to get energy by changing what God stone body was. Not alight or alive burning gas as light.

God and son not sacrificed not burning. Cold and not seen. Holy state.

Jesus was a titled account of why human life was sacrificed by the science applied constant.

 

[John1.12]

I’m going to ask you to excuse your own error. Jesus DID NOT SAY that he would raise himself from the dead... And you yourself provided proof that that was not what he said.... unless you are going to say that Jesus is ALL THREE of the trinity God(s).
The relevant verses you must read through (John 2:16-22)

• “16To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”
• 17His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”
• 18The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
• 19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
• 20They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”
• 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
• 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus knew that after he died there would be a diminishing of the belief in the testimony that he brought from the Father. He knew that ‘ZEAL for [the Father’s house] would fall away... So Jesus told the Jews that [when] they destroyed the ‘Zeal’ that he would raise it back up in three days.

And this is exactly what happened. After Jesus died many many believers wondered if Jesus was truly the messiah, the Saviour prophesied BY GOD and their zeal wavered or even wained.

Thence, after three days when Jesus was resurrected BY THE FATHER’s power of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus himself had used to raise Lazarus wherein Jesus PRAYED OPENLY for the Holy Spirit from the Father, publicly, so all nearby and in time to come, SHOULD WRONGFULLY BELIEVE THAT HE HIMSELF was the primary cause of Lazarus’ raising up....!!! Jesus glorified the Father that he, Jesus, was able to do this.

And, remember that Jesus ‘SWEATED BLOOD’ in the garden of Gethsemane while AGONISING over whether THE FATHER could indeed RAISE HIM BACK UP AGAIN.

Jesus did not agonise so much blood vessels in his body burst over whether HE, Jesus, could raise HIMSELF back up, did he? In fact Jesus CONTEMPLATED ‘a different way’... but brought himself back to righteous holiness in complying with the Will of the Father: ‘Father.....,Yet not my way but yours’.

The spirit of a man goes back to the creator of the spirit: the Father of Spirits: GOD. The spirit is dormant (we do not believe in GHOSTS... disembodied spirits that roam the earth!!) and indeed, as such, Jesus, is no different to any human being: one spirit; one body... the body without a spirit is dead (inert, goes into decay, dies) and hence GOD said that HE would not suffer to see the Son’s body decay:

• “But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.” (Acts 13:37)

And BECAUSE Jesus died, salvation from eternal death by the sin of Adam is destroyed fulfilling one of the many prophesies about the messiah:

• “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.“ (Acts 13:38-39)

Indeed, (I erred in the past saying David was not a prophet... I apologise):

• “But he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.“ (Acts 2;30-31)

Here, for sure, David prophesies that a HUMAN DESCENDANT from his loins would occupy his ‘spiritual’ (as opposed to physical) throne as God loved David more than any other patriarch (‘I have found my David’, says the lord God) but even so David sinned in killing a man and taking his wife as his own and blood was otherwise on his hands. So the messiah most definitely cannot be a SPIRIT SON OF GOD... an impossibly thing nor is the messiah a one third of God SEPARATE from the GOD he is one third of (a conundrum indeed!)

And, SON, .... why is it not understandable??? Son, means:

• ‘Any one who does the works of the Father’

Scriptures tells us, Jesus tells us this: he told some of the Jews that they were ‘Sons of their Father’ (to wit: Satan) because they were DOING THE WORKS OF SATAN - the FATHER of the lie. Now, for sure, who is going to say that Satan PROCREATED or CREATED or these Jews were ETERNALLY EXISTING Sons of devilry... of course not....!! Afterall, ADAM, in the day of his CREATION BY GOD and up until he sinned, was ‘SON OF GOD’. A MAN ‘Son of God’ who righteously followed the spirit of God until sin tempted him. And Jesus was created as ‘The Last Adam’ to replace the fallen first Adam just as many of the first children of the patriarchs fell to sin and another from ‘down the lineage’ was ‘brought up in position’ to replace the first: check them out:

• Cain - Seth
• Ishmael - Isaac
• Esau - Jacob
• Rueben - Joseph
• Eliab - David
• Amnon - Solomon
• Adam - Jesus

///I’m going to ask you to excuse your own error. Jesus DID NOT SAY that he would raise himself from the dead//
That's not what the scriptures say . If its a choice of beliveing you or the scriptures, its going to be the scriptures.
John 2
18¶Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19¶Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20¶Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21¶But he spake of the temple of his body .

22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[John1.12]

///I’m going to ask you to excuse your own error. Jesus DID NOT SAY that he would raise himself from the dead//
That's not what the scriptures say . If its a choice of beliveing you or the scriptures, its going to be the scriptures.
John 2
18¶Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19¶Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20¶Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21¶But he spake of the temple of his body.

22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

//unless you are going to say that Jesus is ALL THREE of the trinity God(s).// This shows you have no idea what your talking about .

 

[John1.12]

I’m going to ask you to excuse your own error. Jesus DID NOT SAY that he would raise himself from the dead... And you yourself provided proof that that was not what he said.... unless you are going to say that Jesus is ALL THREE of the trinity God(s).
The relevant verses you must read through (John 2:16-22)

• “16To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”
• 17His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”
• 18The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
• 19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
• 20They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”
• 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
• 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus knew that after he died there would be a diminishing of the belief in the testimony that he brought from the Father. He knew that ‘ZEAL for [the Father’s house] would fall away... So Jesus told the Jews that [when] they destroyed the ‘Zeal’ that he would raise it back up in three days.

And this is exactly what happened. After Jesus died many many believers wondered if Jesus was truly the messiah, the Saviour prophesied BY GOD and their zeal wavered or even wained.

Thence, after three days when Jesus was resurrected BY THE FATHER’s power of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus himself had used to raise Lazarus wherein Jesus PRAYED OPENLY for the Holy Spirit from the Father, publicly, so all nearby and in time to come, SHOULD WRONGFULLY BELIEVE THAT HE HIMSELF was the primary cause of Lazarus’ raising up....!!! Jesus glorified the Father that he, Jesus, was able to do this.

And, remember that Jesus ‘SWEATED BLOOD’ in the garden of Gethsemane while AGONISING over whether THE FATHER could indeed RAISE HIM BACK UP AGAIN.

Jesus did not agonise so much blood vessels in his body burst over whether HE, Jesus, could raise HIMSELF back up, did he? In fact Jesus CONTEMPLATED ‘a different way’... but brought himself back to righteous holiness in complying with the Will of the Father: ‘Father.....,Yet not my way but yours’.

The spirit of a man goes back to the creator of the spirit: the Father of Spirits: GOD. The spirit is dormant (we do not believe in GHOSTS... disembodied spirits that roam the earth!!) and indeed, as such, Jesus, is no different to any human being: one spirit; one body... the body without a spirit is dead (inert, goes into decay, dies) and hence GOD said that HE would not suffer to see the Son’s body decay:

• “But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.” (Acts 13:37)

And BECAUSE Jesus died, salvation from eternal death by the sin of Adam is destroyed fulfilling one of the many prophesies about the messiah:

• “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.“ (Acts 13:38-39)

Indeed, (I erred in the past saying David was not a prophet... I apologise):

• “But he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.“ (Acts 2;30-31)

Here, for sure, David prophesies that a HUMAN DESCENDANT from his loins would occupy his ‘spiritual’ (as opposed to physical) throne as God loved David more than any other patriarch (‘I have found my David’, says the lord God) but even so David sinned in killing a man and taking his wife as his own and blood was otherwise on his hands. So the messiah most definitely cannot be a SPIRIT SON OF GOD... an impossibly thing nor is the messiah a one third of God SEPARATE from the GOD he is one third of (a conundrum indeed!)

And, SON, .... why is it not understandable??? Son, means:

• ‘Any one who does the works of the Father’

Scriptures tells us, Jesus tells us this: he told some of the Jews that they were ‘Sons of their Father’ (to wit: Satan) because they were DOING THE WORKS OF SATAN - the FATHER of the lie. Now, for sure, who is going to say that Satan PROCREATED or CREATED or these Jews were ETERNALLY EXISTING Sons of devilry... of course not....!! Afterall, ADAM, in the day of his CREATION BY GOD and up until he sinned, was ‘SON OF GOD’. A MAN ‘Son of God’ who righteously followed the spirit of God until sin tempted him. And Jesus was created as ‘The Last Adam’ to replace the fallen first Adam just as many of the first children of the patriarchs fell to sin and another from ‘down the lineage’ was ‘brought up in position’ to replace the first: check them out:

• Cain - Seth
• Ishmael - Isaac
• Esau - Jacob
• Rueben - Joseph
• Eliab - David
• Amnon - Solomon
• Adam - Jesus

//So Jesus told the Jews that [when] they destroyed the ‘Zeal’ that he would raise it back up in three days.// This is the most unique and creative rendition of these verse I've ever seen .lol Where does it say that in the text ?

 

[metis]

I will say that I went to a catholic school for a few years and it sure felt like they were praying to the statue of Mary.

What you probably witnessed was veneration of Mary, which is not the same as praying.

But one thing that is important is that Catholic teaching, along with some other denominations as well, allows one to pray through a saint, much like you and I can pray for each other. In the Apostles Creed, it's referred to as "the communion of saints" whether those saints be alive or have "passed over". However, the saints are viewed as not having power on their own but may intercede on our behalf to God.

Personally, I do not know if this is true to reality, nor do I lose any sleep over this, but I do know some feel solace with this. So, if it helps them, why not?

 

[Jane.Doe]

My point is ,once a person understands fully what Mormons believe the odds of any Christian believing that they are Christian would be dramatically reduced . Some Christians even think Islam teaches the same God.

Duel standards here^.

 

[sojourner]

There are as many daft views as scholars .

Yes. Let’s discount education. That’ll help.

 

[sojourner]

There is if you believe its from God .

Belief =/= fact.

 

[sojourner]

How did you come to choose "48 CE"? From Wikipedia:

The epistle is attributed to Paul the Apostle, and is addressed to the church in Thessalonica, in modern-day Greece. It is likely the first of Paul's letters, probably written by the end of AD 52. However, some scholars believe the Epistle to Galatians may have been written by AD 48.​

Kirby's earlier effort suggests ...

The epistle to the Thessalonians is certainly one of the most ancient Christian documents in existence. It is typically dated c. 50/51 CE. It is universally assented to be an authentic letter of Paul.​

Not that "around 48 CE" differs significantly from "around 52 CE," but I always find it interesting when someone gravitates towards an earlier date. One very real possibility is that you have newer information and, if so, I'd love to know the source.

I’m not at the office much these days, so don’t have ready access to my research materials. My guess is that it comes from The New Testament by Stephen Harris. But you’re correct. Scholar Brandon Scott dates Thess. to circa 50 CE.