"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

[John1.12]

That's not what my point was. When you said that you believe every word is true, there's a problem. Anyone who knows more than one language well knows that some words don't translate well, especially without explanation. One example is the Koine Greek word "agape", which is translated as "love" in English, and yet "love" simply does not adequately cover it.

On top of that, the DSS showed us that some specific translations prior to 1950 were erroneous, but fortunately not that far off.

Love and ' charity ' do adequately cover it ( kjv ) . Agape is used interchangeably with Philia anyway in the scriptures ,so the agape argument is redundant.

 

[John1.12]

It's actually not considered by translators as being that good, although later versions of it have gotten better.

The most widely used translation by theologians is the RSV. It's a bit clumsy to read though because the translators in most cases use the most direct word when translating, thus it can read a bit clumsily at times. The KJV, otoh, tends to read more "poetically", which is why so many Protestant churches especially use that version

I believe the best manuscripts are not from Alexandria.

 

[John1.12]

Per your pattern, you again avoided dealing with what I posted.

How does that not answer . I do believe all of the bible is inspired by God .

 

[metis]

I believe the best manuscripts are not from Alexandria.

So?

How does that not answer . I do believe all of the bible is inspired by God .

The question deals with to what extent as far as reliability to the originals are? In this regard, opinions are a lot like rectums: everyone has at least one.

Anyhow, I'm done at least for the day on this.

 

[Soapy]

You obviously have a very low regard for the Apostles that were the source of the Creed passed down orally at first, so how does one have a serious discussion with a self-proclaimed expert on early Church history when you write nonsensical things like the above?

Answer: One can't, so maybe come back when you are willing to study instead of just spouting, and only then maybe I'll be interested. You have a low regard for the Apostle' teachings but an extremely high regard for yourself, and that's a terrible combination.

To put it another way: S-T-U-D-Y.

Metis, who are you?

What have the Apostles of Christ have to do with the Apostles creed???

And in any case, what does the Apostles creed say???

 

[Soapy]

Colossians 2:9

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

Again, Barry, like Metis says, ‘you don’t answer questions set to you!’ (Paraphrased).

What is ‘the fullness of the Godhead’... what is ‘the Godhead’?

 

[John1.12]

Again, Barry, like Metis says, ‘you don’t answer questions set to you!’ (Paraphrased).

What is ‘the fullness of the Godhead’... what is ‘the Godhead’?

“For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY” (vs. 9). The thing is true in the past and in the present. “The fulness of the Godhead” dwelt “bodily” in Jesus Christ as a man on earth (John 1:14, 18, 14:9–10; 1 Tim. 3:16) and now dwells in His spiritual body (Eph. 3:19, 1:23, 4:16).

 

[John1.12]

It's actually not considered by translators as being that good, although later versions of it have gotten better.

The most widely used translation by theologians is the RSV. It's a bit clumsy to read though because the translators in most cases use the most direct word when translating, thus it can read a bit clumsily at times. The KJV, otoh, tends to read more "poetically", which is why so many Protestant churches especially use that version

Choosing the Kjv simply because it sounds nice would be ok but slightly niave. The Kjv is the most reliable translation imo .

 

[Katzpur]

Nearly ever time I've quoted 1 cor 15 ,1-4 .

Tell me about it! We keep going around in circles because quoting one passage of scripture over and over again is apparently all you are capable of doing. This conversation has become nothing by an exercise in futility, and I still can't decide whether your incompetence or stubbornness is to blame. At any rate, you really, really, really don't need to mention 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 again.

 

[Soapy]

I love how your grappling with the nature of God. I think most expect a god to exist in a form / being,/ essence ,to suit their imagination.

Grappling with the nature of God??? What are you talking about... since when did I express that to you...?

The scriptures tells us about God. It tells us that:

• God is Spirit
  • God is the supreme righteousness, the ultimate in wisdom, the master of Love and piety. He is not temptable, nor fallible, nor errs in his ways but he does have compassion on his created image: man, but not on his spirit sons: angels.
• There is only one true God
  • God told his favoured nation not to worship multiple gods like pagan nations do. That he is the ONLY GOD they are to worship... Jesus says that we should worship ONLY the Father... that the Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD
• God never leaves his throne let alone become flesh in his own creation
  • God employs agents to do his work which is why angels aided in the creation and are overseers of governmental orders in the present time over ‘stations’ in creation. In the new world these positions (stations) will be occupied by human kings and rulers with Jesus as ultimate ruler over creation. Satan is the ruler over the created world at present which is why he tempted Jesus to acquire it without going through the pain and suffering of humiliation and DEATH (both in the wilderness and on the Mount)
  • God will REMAIN ruler over Heaven as his name says: ‘Always was, always is, always will be’ - He changeth not.
• God created mankind to occupy and rule over the created world - and appointed a king over creation
  • It can hardly be such that GOD became ruler over what he already ruled over
• God thoughts are like acts. His acts are carried out by means of his Holy Spirit. It is not a person but like a man thinks a thought and that thought is enacted by his spirit (the spirit is what ACTIVATES the body to do what it does like a computer programme activates a physical movement of an attached peripheral - a robot arm, spin a disk drive, light up a string sequence of LED’s...

How’s that to be going on with?

 

[Katzpur]

Yes thats the ' claim ' .

And of course, you believe otherwise.

 

[John1.12]

Tell me about it! We keep going around in circles because quoting one passage of scripture over and over again is apparently all you are capable of doing. This conversation has become nothing by an exercise in futility, and I still can't decide whether your incompetence or stubbornness is to blame. At any rate, you really, really, really don't need to mention 1 Corinthians 14:1-4 again.

Its ok ,it was 1 cor 15 :1-4 . Did you say something about incompetence?

 

[John1.12]

Grappling with the nature of God??? What are you talking about... since when did I express that to you...?

The scriptures tells us about God. It tells us that:

• God is Spirit
  • God is the supreme righteousness, the ultimate in wisdom, the master of Love and piety. He is not temptable, nor fallible, nor errs in his ways but he does have compassion on his created image: man, but not on his spirit sons: angels.
• There is only one true God
  • God told his favoured nation not to worship multiple gods like pagan nations do. That he is the ONLY GOD they are to worship... Jesus says that we should worship ONLY the Father... that the Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD
• God never leaves his throne let alone become flesh in his own creation
  • God employs agents to do his work which is why angels aided in the creation and are overseers of governmental orders in the present time over ‘stations’ in creation. In the new world these positions (stations) will be occupied by human kings and rulers with Jesus as ultimate ruler over creation. Satan is the ruler over the created world at present which is why he tempted Jesus to acquire it without going through the pain and suffering of humiliation and DEATH (both in the wilderness and on the Mount)
  • God will REMAIN ruler over Heaven as his name says: ‘Always was, always is, always will be’ - He changeth not.
• God created mankind to occupy and rule over the created world - and appointed a king over creation
  • It can hardly be such that GOD became ruler over what he already ruled over
• God thoughts are like acts. His acts are carried out by means of his Holy Spirit. It is not a person but like a man thinks a thought and that thought is enacted by his spirit (the spirit is what ACTIVATES the body to do what it does like a computer programme activates a physical movement of an attached peripheral - a robot arm, spin a disk drive, light up a string sequence of LED’s...

How’s that to be going on with?

1 Tim 3.16
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world ,recieved up into glory .

 

[Soapy]

Are the saints whom have died on Earth also dead in heaven? What about the one man on the cross next to Jesus whereas Jesus said he would be seeing him in heaven based on the man's faith? Doesn't "the communion of saints" as found in the Apostle's Creed tell you something?

Jesus told the thief on the cross who confessed Jesus, that his sins had been forgiven.

NO ONE is resurrected until the judgement day when Jesus resurrects FIRST the ELECT OF GOD (chosen from before the foundation of the world and maintained themselves in Righteousness) .... These are NOT JUDGED but will serve as kings and priest IN PLACE OF THE ANGELS over the created world.

Then the second judgement of all else. In this judgement Jesus selects those whom he deems are sinless in his eyes enough to be granted ETERNAL LIFE.... IN PARADISE ON EARTH.

The ‘good’ thief is in that category - he had his sins forgiven and then died so had no sin in him as far as Jesus judges him. He is RESURRECTED and assigned to eternal life in Paradise on earth.

Jesus did not say that ANYONE would immediately go to paradise (let alone Heaven!!) while he was alive. He told the guy:

• “I tell you this day, you will be with me in paradise’

Jesus did not go to paradise when he died... that is ridiculous and stupid seeing that the spirit of the dead go back to rest with its maker: Almighty God; the Father, the Father of Spirits!!!

And to what paradise would this man have been resurrected to since he died circa 2000 years ago?

Jesus told the man that since his sins had been forgiven he was thence SINLESS and, not being one of the elect of God, would rise to life in paradise in the second resurrection.

 

[GardenLady]

If it wasn't for Paul explaining what Jesus meant specifically, Christianity would be a different animal than it is today. Paul pretty much shaped the religion into its current form. If one just payed attention to the gospels and non-pauline doctrine, people might get very different interpretations of what Jesus actually meant for sure...

In my view, many rely far to heavily on Paul to the exclusion of heeding the words of Jesus. Paul did heavily shape the religion, and specifically drives the "decision theology" of the modern evangelical/fundamentalist movement. I find the flavors of Christianity that incessantly quote Paul and rarely quote Jesus, frankly, disturbing.

 

[Soapy]

1 Tim 3.16
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world ,recieved up into glory .

Barry...,Barry... BARRY.....
Tim 3:16 DOES NOT SAY ‘GOD’ was manifested in the Flesh.... That is one of the TRINITARIAN DELIBERATE MISTRANSLATIONS...

Look at the Greek... I see you are a supposed ‘deep scholar’ in scriptures and Greek koine (or some such) AND YOU DON’T KNOW THAT???

I suppose you still believe the verse that says: ‘There are three in heaven who testify: the Father; son; and Holy Spirit’ despite clear evidence that if is FAKE!!

And, again, like Tim 3:16, if trinity is truth WHY SO MANY FAKE VERSES trying to prove it????

Even you yourself can see the errors and falsities but I guess that you are hoping that I won’t notice that you are seriously in error in your thinking...

1 Tim 3:16 speaks of THE MESSIAH, who was:

1. Manifested in the flesh
   1. GOD said he would send a saviour, a messiah, and that messiah was indeed manifested not in words alone but also in the flesh... nothing strange about God’s word putting on flesh! It always does!!
2. Justified in the Spirit
   1. The messiah was sinless, righteous and holy, anointed with the oil of gladness (the Father’s Holy Spirit) by God
3. Seen by Angels
   1. ((I confess I don’t fully understand what thus alludes to as more than a few people were seen by angels!))
4. Believed on in the world
   1. Proof by the fact we are talking about him here today
5. Taken up in glory
   1. God raised Jesus up to heaven and seated him in glory at his right hand side

Ha ha ha... Now replace ‘Messiah’ with ‘God’ as you are want to do... doesn’t it read ridiculously?

• God was taken up in glory by God
• God was anointed with the Holy Spirit of God
• God was seen by angels....!!!!????????

Oh Barry, Barry, B-A-R-R-Y.....

 

[Soapy]

“For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY” (vs. 9). The thing is true in the past and in the present. “The fulness of the Godhead” dwelt “bodily” in Jesus Christ as a man on earth (John 1:14, 18, 14:9–10; 1 Tim. 3:16) and now dwells in His spiritual body (Eph. 3:19, 1:23, 4:16).

That is not a definition of either Godhead nor fullness.

Sorry Barry, your cracks are showing!

Yoh are using terms you have no idea about and therefore discredited in your posts.

You knowingly claim what you don’t know and ... if you ever call yourself ‘Godly’ or ‘led by the holy spirit’ then it is a boast you may seriously regret but not by my judgement!

Do you care to have another go at defining:

• Fullness
• Godhead

and then see how they fit into the scripts wherein you claim Jesus is filled with the fullness of the godhead...

 

[Jane.Doe]

Tell me about it! We keep going around in circles because quoting one passage of scripture over and over again is apparently all you are capable of doing. This conversation has become nothing by an exercise in futility, and I still can't decide whether your incompetence or stubbornness is to blame. At any rate, you really, really, really don't need to mention 1 Corinthians 14:1-4 again.

Agreed ( yes we all know you meant chapter 15). Barry only quotes that, saying it’s the Gospel in a nutshell, but believing that passage full heartedly isn’t enough to make LDS Christians actually Christians (according to Barry).

 

[John1.12]

Barry...,Barry... BARRY.....
Tim 3:16 DOES NOT SAY ‘GOD’ was manifested in the Flesh.... That is one of the TRINITARIAN DELIBERATE MISTRANSLATIONS...

Look at the Greek... I see you are a supposed ‘deep scholar’ in scriptures and Greek koine (or some such) AND YOU DON’T KNOW THAT???

I suppose you still believe the verse that says: ‘There are three in heaven who testify: the Father; son; and Holy Spirit’ despite clear evidence that if is FAKE!!

And, again, like Tim 3:16, if trinity is truth WHY SO MANY FAKE VERSES trying to prove it????

Even you yourself can see the errors and falsities but I guess that you are hoping that I won’t notice that you are seriously in error in your thinking...

1 Tim 3:16 speaks of THE MESSIAH, who was:

1. Manifested in the flesh
   1. GOD said he would send a saviour, a messiah, and that messiah was indeed manifested not in words alone but also in the flesh... nothing strange about God’s word putting on flesh! It always does!!
2. Justified in the Spirit
   1. The messiah was sinless, righteous and holy, anointed with the oil of gladness (the Father’s Holy Spirit) by God
3. Seen by Angels
   1. ((I confess I don’t fully understand what thus alludes to as more than a few people were seen by angels!))
4. Believed on in the world
   1. Proof by the fact we are talking about him here today
5. Taken up in glory
   1. God raised Jesus up to heaven and seated him in glory at his right hand side

Ha ha ha... Now replace ‘Messiah’ with ‘God’ as you are want to do... doesn’t it read ridiculously?

• God was taken up in glory by God
• God was anointed with the Holy Spirit of God
• God was seen by angels....!!!!????????

Oh Barry, Barry, B-A-R-R-Y.....

Nope I trust the text in English as it stands .

 

[John1.12]

Barry...,Barry... BARRY.....
Tim 3:16 DOES NOT SAY ‘GOD’ was manifested in the Flesh.... That is one of the TRINITARIAN DELIBERATE MISTRANSLATIONS...

Look at the Greek... I see you are a supposed ‘deep scholar’ in scriptures and Greek koine (or some such) AND YOU DON’T KNOW THAT???

I suppose you still believe the verse that says: ‘There are three in heaven who testify: the Father; son; and Holy Spirit’ despite clear evidence that if is FAKE!!

And, again, like Tim 3:16, if trinity is truth WHY SO MANY FAKE VERSES trying to prove it????

Even you yourself can see the errors and falsities but I guess that you are hoping that I won’t notice that you are seriously in error in your thinking...

1 Tim 3:16 speaks of THE MESSIAH, who was:

1. Manifested in the flesh
   1. GOD said he would send a saviour, a messiah, and that messiah was indeed manifested not in words alone but also in the flesh... nothing strange about God’s word putting on flesh! It always does!!
2. Justified in the Spirit
   1. The messiah was sinless, righteous and holy, anointed with the oil of gladness (the Father’s Holy Spirit) by God
3. Seen by Angels
   1. ((I confess I don’t fully understand what thus alludes to as more than a few people were seen by angels!))
4. Believed on in the world
   1. Proof by the fact we are talking about him here today
5. Taken up in glory
   1. God raised Jesus up to heaven and seated him in glory at his right hand side

Ha ha ha... Now replace ‘Messiah’ with ‘God’ as you are want to do... doesn’t it read ridiculously?

• God was taken up in glory by God
• God was anointed with the Holy Spirit of God
• God was seen by angels....!!!!????????

Oh Barry, Barry, B-A-R-R-Y.....

Here it is again, translated into English .
1 Tim 3.16
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world ,recieved up into glory .