"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

[halbhh]

what we see in other religions and philosphies is a claim on Jesus . As a Christian we of course have our differences on certain verses and doctrines . But this is within christianity. We see the issue is down to our free will and different opinions and such . But imagine to our horror ,when we see other religions who make a claim on Jesus and what he taught and they have not the same world view . Its hard enough within the same worldview , But what we see is all these claims from ' outside ' and how radical theses claims are .
Here are a few
Mormonsim teaches Jesus went to America to preach to the natives .

Jehovah's_Witnesses teach that Jesus is micheal the Arch Angel .

Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.

Islam. He's a prophet. Not the Son of God and that he certainly didn't die on a cross or resurrect.

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible . Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

While of course some other religions don't have the full accurate account of Jesus his followers gave.... One can at times just give them more of what he said to help fill in missing things, or even just to learn there is more of interest they don't know, and help them get a sense of where they could learn more of that good teaching of His.

In contrast to those other religions are actual anti-Christian militants or ideologues, people with an axe to grind.

That's the source of those bizarre misinterpretations and misrepresentations about what Jesus says in the 4 canonical gospels. (though many are just repeating ideas/spins they heard elsewhere, without realizing it is not what the text actually says -- which is more innocent, even sometimes akin to Saul of Tarsus or anyone else reacting against a false idea)

But at least it's not hard for someone that has read fully in those gospels to detect the misrepresentations and false assertions about the actual text, and try to tell the accurate statements Christ made by the text. (which of course some will listen to, thought some others will at times absolutely will refuse to even consider, because it doesn't match what they themselves have repeated too often)

A believer in God from another religion simply not knowing what Jesus said in the gospels at least knows that God exists, and can consider the things Christ said more neutrally.

 

[Windwalker]

what we see in other religions and philosphies is a claim on Jesus . As a Christian we of course have our differences on certain verses and doctrines . But this is within christianity. We see the issue is down to our free will and different opinions and such. But imagine to our horror ,when we see other religions who make a claim on Jesus and what he taught and they have not the same world view .

Its hard enough within the same worldview , But what we see is all these claims from ' outside ' and how radical theses claims are .

Do all Christians have the same worldview? Are all Christians Creationists, for example? Are all Christians conservatives? Are they all liberals? Or do Christians themselves have divergent worldviews, and divergent perspectives on Jesus and God?

Why do you say it is a "horror" to see others from other religions likewise having their own perspectives on Jesus? Is this really different than Christians themselves having different perspectives?

Here are a few
Mormonsim teaches Jesus went to America to preach to the natives .

Jehovah's_Witnesses teach that Jesus is micheal the Arch Angel .

And Creationists believe the earth is only 6000 years old. Seventh Day Adventists think you should only worship on Saturday, and so on and so forth. Some of these ideas are radically different than what other Christians believe too.

Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.

So do many Christians.

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible .

The Jesus of the Bible to them, is perceived as different than what you perceive. They are all using the Bible, and they are all seeing different things. This is as true within Christianity, as it is to those outside of it. Everyone has a perspective of what the Bible says. Who can claim to be the only right way? Yourself? Doesn't that strike you as a little too convenient?

Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

Is there really anything wrong with that?

 

[halbhh]

How do we know it is the bible that is right?

I never assumed anything was right in it past the most trivial factual stuff about cities and kings or other historical trivialities.

Hearing me?

So, what did I do though? -- I searched for things that might work, from the famous teacher Jesus (just like I did from Emerson or Lao Tzu.... Carl Rogers or Indian gurus...sweat lodges or modern psychologists, philosophers or poets....and more), in order to test them out, to see if they worked better than the best things I'd already found in other systems and traditions and methods of many different kinds, for how to best live life.

Here and now. For gain.



Lucky find! I found everything Christ says works as well as or (in many cases) better than other traditions methods/ways/practices. From A-Z.

 

[stvdv]

But imagine to our horror ,when we see other religions who make a claim on Jesus and what he taught and they have not the same world view

Would be interesting to know what Jesus thinks about how Christians practise Christianity
Maybe Jesus is more horrified to see the aberrations of Christians than of non-Christians

 

[stvdv]

Its hard enough within the same worldview , But what we see is all these claims from ' outside ' and how radical theses claims are .
Here are a few
Mormonsim teaches Jesus went to America to preach to the natives .
Jehovah's_Witnesses teach that Jesus is micheal the Arch Angel .
Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.
Islam. He's a prophet. Not the Son of God and that he certainly didn't die on a cross or resurrect.

Nice list of differences. I never thought about this before.

I can add one more: My Master (from India) said that Jesus became one with God

 

[stvdv]

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible . Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

Always look at the bright side of life ... "Jesus impacted the whole world and not just in Jerusalem" ... even better if it has been in a positive way

 

[exchemist]

I never assumed anything was right in it past the most trivial factual stuff about cities and kings or other historical trivialities.

Hearing me?

So, what did I do though? -- I searched for things that might work, from the famous teacher Jesus (just like I did from Emerson or Lao Tzu.... Carl Rogers or Indian gurus...sweat lodges or modern psychologists, philosophers or poets....and more), in order to test them out, to see if they worked better than the best things I'd already found in other systems and traditions and methods of many different kinds, for how to best live life.

Here and now. For gain.



Lucky find!

Yes I think that's the right spirit.

 

[MatthewA]

Looking at it from the other side however, it is quite easy for me to see that none of the Christians, Mormons, JW's etc., are following the original Yahshua because they are clearly not. They are following a doctrine that was made later and pushed aside the teachings of Yahshua himself.

Does this matter however? I don't think so, although it certainly has many advantages to actually practise what Yahshua himself taught instead of following the Christian-like doctrines, there are no longer any functioning paths left in which you can follow Yahshua in this way. They must have disappeared very long ago, before or not long after the Christian Church became established.

Fair enough. Thank you for response, Marcion.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I think the variations are due to not Believing the narrative at face value . The results vary because of unbelief at some level .Behind every difference there is this at the heart of it . At some level its not Believing the text at face value. The more Liberal the more obvious this is demonstrated.The catholic church is a good example . They interpret the bible through the lens of other sources ,namely there traditions . What ever else your adding to the bible this will affect your outcome. The more you simply take the bible face value ,without the lens or set of glasses of another competing source ,the closer the interpretation is understood in context.

Huh... Are you saying the bible is without contradiction? That's kind of where this variation branches off, don't you think?

For example, how did Judas Iscariot die?

 

[MatthewA]

Hello SigurdReginson:

The bible said He went and hung himself.

Matthew 27: 1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

That place was in Jerusalem: Akeldama (Aramaic: חקל דמא or Ḥaqel D'ma, "field of blood"; Hebrew: חקל דמא; Arabic: حقل الدم, Ḥaqel Ad-dam) is the Aramaic name for a place in Jerusalem associated with Judas Iscariot, one of the original twelve apostles of Jesus.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Hello SigurdReginson:

The bible said He went and hung himself.

Matthew 27: 1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

That place was in Jerusalem: Akeldama (Aramaic: חקל דמא or Ḥaqel D'ma, "field of blood"; Hebrew: חקל דמא; Arabic: حقل الدم, Ḥaqel Ad-dam) is the Aramaic name for a place in Jerusalem associated with Judas Iscariot, one of the original twelve apostles of Jesus.

Really now, because it talks about his death in Acts too... And in there he dies via work accident.

Acts 1:18 and after.

Where in Matthew his property was named the "Field of Blood" because of the blood money, in Acts it's called the "Field of Blood" because it was soiled with his own blood.

So, again, how did he die?

 

[Shakeel]

I know what the teaching says yes. If Muhammad actually orally said it, i do not know, i was not there to hear it

This is shameful and embarrassing.

 

[Skeezy]

what we see in other religions and philosphies is a claim on Jesus . As a Christian we of course have our differences on certain verses and doctrines . But this is within christianity. We see the issue is down to our free will and different opinions and such . But imagine to our horror ,when we see other religions who make a claim on Jesus and what he taught and they have not the same world view . Its hard enough within the same worldview , But what we see is all these claims from ' outside ' and how radical theses claims are .
Here are a few
Mormonsim teaches Jesus went to America to preach to the natives .

Jehovah's_Witnesses teach that Jesus is micheal the Arch Angel .

Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.

Islam. He's a prophet. Not the Son of God and that he certainly didn't die on a cross or resurrect.

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible . Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

People perceive things differently. In the Bible God divides humanity and makes them speak different languages.

I believe, inside of Christianity, one could conclude that each region received its own version of spiritual path while still receiving the creators basic messages.

Thats pretty much how I look at it. Many religions have a individual similar to Jesus, Emaculate birth, teaching abroad, spiritually enlightened etc.

Recently (past 12 years or so) I have noticed a striking gap between the Bible and what many denominations under the Christianity umbrella teach. So it has made me open to focusing more on text of religions vs what is generally taught or assumed about the text. Eye opening.

A good example is what Jesus looks like. You walk into a church and you'll most likely see paintings or depictions of Jesus (a sin per the bible). Reading the Bible gives a much different depiction. So even inside of Christianity there is distortion on even the smallest of things. One could even say that if someone were to leave a country grounded in historical religious bigotry and racial anguish and study the same religion in a less convoluted place that Jesus would become less limited by race distortions and more realistic. Many things are askew simply by human interference.

One example, Often you'll hear people often say. "God Loves everybody."No where does the Bible say this. They'll also say. "Jesus Loves Everybody." This is more palatable as Jesus was very kind but again its not accurate.

I use those examples because personally I believe that one comes up in Christianity especially in America, they have a lot of social/racial clutter between Jesus and text and popular multi denominational beliefs not grounded in the text.


One last example is heaven and hell. There is a lot of interpretation on this. However, the Bible and other books such as the book of enoch, flat out tell you where you go when you die. It says everyone goes to one of 3 compartments in a place called sheol and awaits judgement. When judgement occurs the entirety of sheol is thrown in "the fire" by god because it no longer has a purpose.

I explain all that because in Christianity you always get the heaven hell scenario but thats clearly not what the book says plainly. You have people describe a hellish scene but its not known what these visions pertain to as far as judgement.

Perception, without the text is open to be very wordly and in Christianity this distortion is abundant and taught.

 

[MatthewA]

Really now, because it talks about his death in Acts too... And in there he dies via work accident.

Acts 1:18 and after.

Where in Matthew his property was named the "Field of Blood" because of the blood money, in Acts it's called the "Field of Blood" because it was soiled with his own blood.

So, again, how did he die?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion right? Haha, @SigurdReginson in respect ; Still believe that what happened to Judas was that. When Judas realized what he done by selling out an innocent man; namely Jesus Christ. Looking upon the Lord Jesus after 3 years of spending time together with him and the disciples. He internally became and felt guilty and was very conscience of what was done, which sent him into his own demise; which led to killing himself.

This is what I get from the entire picture.

Do you believe this can happen to someone today? @SigurdReginson selling out someone that leads them to guilt; and they sold the person out for their own gain. Later realizing what they had done was wrong?

 

[firedragon]

I think it can come down to opting for the most logical testimony of Jesus. For example Islam teaches things about Jesus that does not line up with the NT description. Now Muhammad's accounts of Jesus come 600 years after the fact . He never met Jesus, never lived in his lifetime . Now he makes claims about Jesus as do lots of religions . Claims that completely contradict the NT . The NT is criticised because its accused of 'late ' writings after the events took place ( which makes perfect sense given the persecution at the time ) But here we have other religions making claims about Jesus hundreds of years after the effect. They never met Jesus.

Well, no one who wrote the NT have ever met Jesus either. The persecution thing is just an excuse to justify why no one who ever met Jesus is known to you by writing or even immediate oral tradition.

This statement of mine does not say the Quran is correct. But your apologetic is not very sound. Thats it.

Cheers.

 

[McBell]

what we see in other religions and philosphies is a claim on Jesus . As a Christian we of course have our differences on certain verses and doctrines . But this is within christianity. We see the issue is down to our free will and different opinions and such . But imagine to our horror ,when we see other religions who make a claim on Jesus and what he taught and they have not the same world view . Its hard enough within the same worldview , But what we see is all these claims from ' outside ' and how radical theses claims are .
Here are a few
Mormonsim teaches Jesus went to America to preach to the natives .

Jehovah's_Witnesses teach that Jesus is micheal the Arch Angel .

Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.

Islam. He's a prophet. Not the Son of God and that he certainly didn't die on a cross or resurrect.

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible . Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

What makes Mormonsim and Jehovah's_Witnesses not Christian?

 

[MatthewA]

What makes Mormonsim and Jehovah's_Witnesses not Christian?

Hello Mestemia; know this is a response to Barry, however would like to just give my quick insertion and see what you consider about this information.

Mormonism - > Organization -> Has it's own rules and sets of beliefs -> Otherwise you can not be apart of the religion. (I have never been in this place but have seen the church before there is one not to far away ~ Though never been in that place have been taught; what they teach with-in the confines of the Organization.)

Jehovah Witness - > Organization -> Has it's own rules and sets of beliefs -> Otherwise you can not be apart of the religion. ( I actually have been in a JW Kingdom Hall; but never became a member of the church.)

Believe that indoctrination of people; is where the freedom is lost. ~ That is my opinion though.

When hearing both of them; my thoughts run to the organization and not the people with-in it. People in that organization may still have access to the bible; and learn about God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and become a born again.

Another thing is; what is the definition of a Christian?

What is it that makes a person a Christian in the first place?

 

[McBell]

Hello Mestemia; know this is a response to Barry, however would like to just give my quick insertion and see what you consider about this information.

Mormonism - > Organization -> Has it's own rules and sets of beliefs -> Otherwise you can not be apart of the religion. (I have never been in this place but have seen the church before there is one not to far away ~ Though never been in that place have been taught; what they teach with-in the confines of the Organization.)

Jehovah Witness - > Organization -> Has it's own rules and sets of beliefs -> Otherwise you can not be apart of the religion. ( I actually have been in a JW Kingdom Hall; but never became a member of the church.)

Believe that indoctrination of people; is where the freedom is lost. ~ That is my opinion though.

When hearing both of them; my thoughts run to the organization and not the people with-in it. People in that organization may still have access to the bible; and learn about God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and become a born again.

So your thought is that indoctrination makes them not Christian?
Do you apply the same standards to say Catholicism?
Does this same standard apply to the Amish?
Mennonites?

Another thing is; what is the definition of a Christian?

What is it that makes a person a Christian in the first place?

I do find it interesting that you ask these questions without addressing them in the first part of your reply.....

 

[MatthewA]

Indoctrination to me: Is when an Organization starts placing demands on the person; in what they believe, how they must act, how they must do everything that is suggested in the Organization.

That is when things can become dangerous for the person who is being taught through and by the wisdom of Man compared by and through the Wisdom of God which can be found in the scriptures of the Holy Bible.

To me it seems that most people enjoy to be taught, or talked to, rather than go and read about the information that is found in the context in the bible.

It is sad to not have freedom and have someone over you demanding you must do, you must do that, especially when it comes to being a Christian. In which what you must do, is mentioned with-in the context of the bible: which is to believe on the Son of God Jesus Christ; and simply Grow in knowledge of God, and the Lord Jesus Christ growing in the spirit: and loving God, and Loving others. Thank God is not much more than that though; if a person studies the bible they will be conscience of so many different things, and believe that is one of the reasons it is so hard to really go and read.

Those are some of my thoughts to your question @Mestemia.

I love people; and would desire people to be set free compared to religious bondage of what an Organization; even from any Church that might demand!

 

[McBell]

Indoctrination to me: Is when an Organization starts placing demands on the person; in what they believe, how they must act, how they must do everything that is suggested in the Organization.

That is when things can become dangerous for the person who is being taught through and by the wisdom of Man compared by and through the Wisdom of God which can be found in the scriptures of the Holy Bible.

To me it seems that most people enjoy to be taught, or talked to, rather than go and read about the information that is found in the context in the bible.

It is sad to not have freedom and have someone over you demanding you must do, you must do that, especially when it comes to being a Christian. In which what you must do, is mentioned with-in the context of it.

Those are some of my thoughts to your question @Mestemia.

I love people; and would desire people to be set free compared to religious bondage of what an Organization; even from any Church that might do that same thing; which there are.

So then you would say that the Amish are not Christians, right?
I mean, you have to if your are going to be consistent with your beliefs concerning indoctrination...

I did notice how you flat out avoided answering follow up questions...

But if that is all you have to offer up, then so be it.