"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

[IndigoChild5559]

what we see in other religions and philosphies is a claim on Jesus . As a Christian we of course have our differences on certain verses and doctrines . But this is within christianity. We see the issue is down to our free will and different opinions and such . But imagine to our horror ,when we see other religions who make a claim on Jesus and what he taught and they have not the same world view . Its hard enough within the same worldview , But what we see is all these claims from ' outside ' and how radical theses claims are .
Here are a few
Mormonsim teaches Jesus went to America to preach to the natives .

Jehovah's_Witnesses teach that Jesus is micheal the Arch Angel .

Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.

Islam. He's a prophet. Not the Son of God and that he certainly didn't die on a cross or resurrect.

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible . Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

Jews have lots of different opinions, from, he didn't really exist, to, he was a teacher of Torah that failed when he tried to be the messiah... But we all agree about one thing. We don't need Jesus in our religion. He is completely unnecessary.

 

[Trailblazer]

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible . Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

Baha'is do not have any claims on Jesus but the following quote that represents the 'official' Bahai position on Christianity might help you to better understand our beliefs about Jesus.

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.”
The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110

 

[Marcion]

Indoctrination to me: Is when an Organization starts placing demands on the person; in what they believe, how they must act, how they must do everything that is suggested in the Organization.

That is when things can become dangerous for the person who is being taught through and by the wisdom of Man compared by and through the Wisdom of God which can be found in the scriptures of the Holy Bible.

Don't forget dear Matthew that the Bible was also composed and collected by an organisation made by Man/Men.
Thus the perceived difference between one organisation and another is a matter of opinion only.

If you are trying to say that one organisation has the 'Word of God' and the other hasn't, then what are you in fact doing? You are propagating religious dogma in the spirit of religious fundamentalism.
The value of scriptures should only be argued through open discussions, not through fundamentalist declarations.

 

[MatthewA]

Freedom is paramount in Christianity; to have freedom to question, to think, to choose, and ponder about everything and anything. To me though sometimes in others it seems as though they may be in bondage to certain things in life, myself included though my life has become a lot more less constricted around the constraints of you must do this, or you must do that mentality into freedom of my own choice: As I will do this or do that. Though do not what others entail when it comes to their own choices due to they have freedom; and it would not be in my favor to condemn, or judge anyone for my own self has been through a lot and experienced many different things through out life; just as everyone else here has. Hope that you have a good night, @Marcion.

~ I would just share and say from my perspective of the Christian Philosophy which was taught by and through the Lord Jesus Christ in the scriptures is that even though I have freedom in Christ Jesus it is not freedom to do literally whatever I want to : As to go on to kill someone; or to keep hating on someone; there is a lot of things that are changed in a persons heart from what it use to be when it comes to Christ Jesus. There is freedom to love God and love others freely without the restrains of sin anymore because of become dead to sin which is taught in the bible.

That sin had to deal with unbelief; hatefulness, evil, malicious acts, greed, lustful for friends wife (whatever it is), Coveting (wanting other things people have because of not possessing whatever it is), lying, unmerciful, unforgiving, unloving, there are many that can be named (Galatians 5) ~ I have done all of these things, from lying, cheating, being lustful, greedy, and still suffer from somethings, but my heart has been made new by God through the spirit which causes me to have love, be kind, be gentle, be forgiving, be merciful, not lusting and trying to sleep with my neighbors wife, being more peaceful, patient with others, and things of this nature.

~~ These are my own personal beliefs, and a bit of information about who I am as a person. Thank you for reading and take care; my only thing is for people to be encouraged and hope the best for you and your family because there is not judgement or condemnation here, or hate for anyone at all.

 

[John1.12]

Do all Christians have the same worldview? Are all Christians Creationists, for example? Are all Christians conservatives? Are they all liberals? Or do Christians themselves have divergent worldviews, and divergent perspectives on Jesus and God?

Why do you say it is a "horror" to see others from other religions likewise having their own perspectives on Jesus? Is this really different than Christians themselves having different perspectives?


And Creationists believe the earth is only 6000 years old. Seventh Day Adventists think you should only worship on Saturday, and so on and so forth. Some of these ideas are radically different than what other Christians believe too.


So do many Christians.


The Jesus of the Bible to them, is perceived as different than what you perceive. They are all using the Bible, and they are all seeing different things. This is as true within Christianity, as it is to those outside of it. Everyone has a perspective of what the Bible says. Who can claim to be the only right way? Yourself? Doesn't that strike you as a little too convenient?


Is there really anything wrong with that?

If Christian says that Jesus did not die on a cross ,is not the Son of God , is not divine , did not resurect , is only an Angel/ Spirit creature, is only a Prophet and such then i.d seriously have doubts that this person is a saved Christian. Or that he lost his mind .

 

[John1.12]

Nice list of differences. I never thought about this before.

I can add one more: My Master (from India) said that Jesus became one with God

Exactly. This is on point.

 

[John1.12]

Well, no one who wrote the NT have ever met Jesus either. The persecution thing is just an excuse to justify why no one who ever met Jesus is known to you by writing or even immediate oral tradition.

This statement of mine does not say the Quran is correct. But your apologetic is not very sound. Thats it.

Cheers.

//Well, no one who wrote the NT have ever met Jesus either. // Have you read the NT ? Because you would not say this given the narrative . There's absolutely no prove for your statement.

 

[John1.12]

People perceive things differently. In the Bible God divides humanity and makes them speak different languages.

I believe, inside of Christianity, one could conclude that each region received its own version of spiritual path while still receiving the creators basic messages.

Thats pretty much how I look at it. Many religions have a individual similar to Jesus, Emaculate birth, teaching abroad, spiritually enlightened etc.

Recently (past 12 years or so) I have noticed a striking gap between the Bible and what many denominations under the Christianity umbrella teach. So it has made me open to focusing more on text of religions vs what is generally taught or assumed about the text. Eye opening.

A good example is what Jesus looks like. You walk into a church and you'll most likely see paintings or depictions of Jesus (a sin per the bible). Reading the Bible gives a much different depiction. So even inside of Christianity there is distortion on even the smallest of things. One could even say that if someone were to leave a country grounded in historical religious bigotry and racial anguish and study the same religion in a less convoluted place that Jesus would become less limited by race distortions and more realistic. Many things are askew simply by human interference.

One example, Often you'll hear people often say. "God Loves everybody."No where does the Bible say this. They'll also say. "Jesus Loves Everybody." This is more palatable as Jesus was very kind but again its not accurate.

I use those examples because personally I believe that one comes up in Christianity especially in America, they have a lot of social/racial clutter between Jesus and text and popular multi denominational beliefs not grounded in the text.


One last example is heaven and hell. There is a lot of interpretation on this. However, the Bible and other books such as the book of enoch, flat out tell you where you go when you die. It says everyone goes to one of 3 compartments in a place called sheol and awaits judgement. When judgement occurs the entirety of sheol is thrown in "the fire" by god because it no longer has a purpose.

I explain all that because in Christianity you always get the heaven hell scenario but thats clearly not what the book says plainly. You have people describe a hellish scene but its not known what these visions pertain to as far as judgement.

Perception, without the text is open to be very wordly and in Christianity this distortion is abundant and taught.

I agree that there are some who do not believe the bible and therfore there beliefs reflect this .

 

[John1.12]

What makes Mormonsim and Jehovah's_Witnesses not Christian?

What they believe. JW,s believe that Jesus was a created being , Micheal the Arch angel ,who literally died on the cross and his body dissolved in gasses by God . Then a spirit creature was raised by God's memory of Micheal ,anew to live forever. They teach that the first thing God created was Jesus and so by following the rules and regulations of what the organisation says ,which includes mandatory door knocking they MIGHT avoid armageddon and live on a restored earth ( Earthly class ) ,whist a 144000 ( heavenly class ) will rule and reign in heaven.

Mormonsim ,teaches Jesus is the brother of Satan . That we were all literal spirit babies created by 'heavenly father ' Then sent to earth ( of course we don't remember this ) for exaltation, proving one to be worthy by following gods law s and the many things that are required by the modern day Prophets at the big ole temples . God literally had sex with Mary to create Jesus. This is just a few weird things that Mormons believe that's so far from Christianity its amazing . The only thing that's Christian about it is the name . Which some are duped into thinking this means it must be Christian.

 

[Marcion]

Freedom is paramount in Christianity; to have freedom to question, to think, to choose, and ponder about everything and anything. To me though sometimes in others it seems as though they may be in bondage to certain things in life, myself included though my life has become a lot more less constricted around the constraints of you must do this, or you must do that mentality into freedom of my own choice: As I will do this or do that. Though do not what others entail when it comes to their own choices due to they have freedom; and it would not be in my favor to condemn, or judge anyone for my own self has been through a lot and experienced many different things through out life; just as everyone else here has. Hope that you have a good night, @Marcion.

~ I would just share and say from my perspective of the Christian Philosophy which was taught by and through the Lord Jesus Christ in the scriptures is that even though I have freedom in Christ Jesus it is not freedom to do literally whatever I want to : As to go on to kill someone; or to keep hating on someone; there is a lot of things that are changed in a persons heart from what it use to be when it comes to Christ Jesus. There is freedom to love God and love others freely without the restrains of sin anymore because of become dead to sin which is taught in the bible.

That sin had to deal with unbelief; hatefulness, evil, malicious acts, greed, lustful for friends wife (whatever it is), Coveting (wanting other things people have because of not possessing whatever it is), lying, unmerciful, unforgiving, unloving, there are many that can be named (Galatians 5) ~ I have done all of these things, from lying, cheating, being lustful, greedy, and still suffer from somethings, but my heart has been made new by God through the spirit which causes me to have love, be kind, be gentle, be forgiving, be merciful, not lusting and trying to sleep with my neighbors wife, being more peaceful, patient with others, and things of this nature.

Thank you, it is morning over here.
I have to correct you here Matthew, the Christian faith (not a philosophy) was not at all taught by Jesus but by Christians only.
Jesus did not teach anything Christian. He did not himself teach that his death would save you through the crucifixion, nor that he would return in an apocalypse to judge the believers and the non-believers.

Those are the teachings of early Christians who wrote up the Christian gospel story in various forms.
The teachings of Jesus are quite compatible with Sufism, with Buddhism and with tantric Hinduism.
And that is why I am convinced that Jesus was a real person and not someone invented by Christians.
He is worthy of your adoration and your devotion and he deserves his original words to be studied and put into practice.

You have that freedom of choice. You can persist in religious fundamentalism or you can embrace truth and harmony.
God did not create sects and religions to be separate and compete with each other.
God also does not punish people who leave religious fundamentalism behind and embrace the universalism that also Jesus taught.

 

[MatthewA]

Thank you, it is morning over here.
I have to correct you here Matthew, the Christian faith (not a philosophy) was not at all taught by Jesus but by Christians only.
Jesus did not teach anything Christian. He did not himself teach that his death would save you through the crucifixion, nor that he would return in an apocalypse to judge the believers and the non-believers.

Those are the teachings of early Christians who wrote up the Christian gospel story in various forms.
The teachings of Jesus are quite compatible with Sufism, with Buddhism and with tantric Hinduism.
And that is why I am convinced that Jesus was a real person and not someone invented by Christians.
He is worthy of your adoration and your devotion and he deserves his original words to be studied and put into practice.

You have that freedom of choice. You can persist in religious fundamentalism or you can embrace truth and harmony.
God did not create sects and religions to be separate and compete with each other.
God also does not punish people who leave religious fundamentalism behind and embrace the universalism that also Jesus taught.

Well noted. Thank you and you have a wonderful morning brother! Take care.

 

[firedragon]

//Well, no one who wrote the NT have ever met Jesus either. // Have you read the NT ? Because you would not say this given the narrative . There's absolutely no prove for your statement.

Except for the epistles of James, none of the other books are attributed to anyone who has ever met Jesus.

And the epistles of James are highly contested in authorship.

 

[John1.12]

Baha'is do not have any claims on Jesus but the following quote that represents the 'official' Bahai position on Christianity might help you to better understand our beliefs about Jesus.

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.”
The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110

This is Eastern mysticism mixed with Roman Catholicism IMO .Mary was not ' Immaculate 'in the sense in which Catholicism teaches .The 'Primacy ' of Peter is another Catholic, false assertion .

 

[John1.12]

Thank you, it is morning over here.
I have to correct you here Matthew, the Christian faith (not a philosophy) was not at all taught by Jesus but by Christians only.
Jesus did not teach anything Christian. He did not himself teach that his death would save you through the crucifixion, nor that he would return in an apocalypse to judge the believers and the non-believers.

Those are the teachings of early Christians who wrote up the Christian gospel story in various forms.
The teachings of Jesus are quite compatible with Sufism, with Buddhism and with tantric Hinduism.
And that is why I am convinced that Jesus was a real person and not someone invented by Christians.
He is worthy of your adoration and your devotion and he deserves his original words to be studied and put into practice.

You have that freedom of choice. You can persist in religious fundamentalism or you can embrace truth and harmony.
God did not create sects and religions to be separate and compete with each other.
God also does not punish people who leave religious fundamentalism behind and embrace the universalism that also Jesus taught.

Id love to see the evidence for this ?

 

[John1.12]

Except for the epistles of James, none of the other books are attributed to anyone who has ever met Jesus.

And the epistles of James are highly contested in authorship.

Some Liberal folks be saying all manner of things .". Pick your scholars, place your bets roll up roll up " I don't know any Christian scholar who believes the bible who says Mark ,Matthew John ,Paul, Peter James ect didn't meet Jesus. But you will of course meet the looney fringe who even deny Moses wrote the first 5 book s of the Bible.

 

[firedragon]

Some Liberal folks be saying all manner of things .". Pick your scholars, place your bets roll up roll up " I don't know any Christian scholar who believes the bible who says Mark ,mathew John ,Paul James ect didn't meet Jesus. But you will of course meet the looney fringe who even deny Moses wrote the first 5 book s of the Bible.

Well, genetic fallacies dont make arguments. they are just genetic fallacies.

Many people resort to that kind of dismissal out of ignorance and no other choice.

And of course you are that type who will resort to ad hominem just for argument because you dont have any other choice like you showed above. I like to refrain from discussion with that type of people. Id rather have a nonsensical discount with more decent people.

Have a great day.

 

[John1.12]

Well, genetic fallacies dont make arguments. they are just genetic fallacies.

Many people resort to that kind of dismissal out of ignorance and no other choice.

And of course you are that type who will resort to ad hominem just for argument because you dont have any other choice like you showed above. I like to refrain from discussion with that type of people. Id rather have a nonsensical discount with more decent people.

Have a great day.

Yes and I would rather discuss the narrative of the actual text in question .

 

[firedragon]

Yes and I would rather discuss the narrative of the actual text in question .

Thats a great approach. If you want to discuss the actual text, that's perfectly fine.

1. So can you explain to me, the actual text on the Gospel of Matthew, was the title "Gospel according Matthew" part of the scripture or "text of the account" or not?

2. Or did the original text ever contain this as a Title, part of the text or anything at all for that matter?

3. What do you think about the proposition that the earlier text began with the genealogy?

Please explain.

 

[metis]

.The 'Primacy ' of Peter is another Catholic, false assertion .

Prove it.

 

[metis]

Mary was not ' Immaculate 'in the sense in which Catholicism teaches .

While you're at it, prove this as well.