What kind of atheist converts to a theist?

[RedJamaX]

Do you not think it is possible for a theist to have a confidence in the sciences? Is it not possible, to you, to come to the position of theism while still having done a rational analysis of the natural world? I'm sorry, but I just keep seeing this underlying message behind your posts. Basically, that theists aren't logical. Theists don't think rationally. One can't be a theist and think a rational and logical thought at the same time. If one was an atheist and they became a theist then you apparently doubt that they were ever an atheist because they used any form of logical or rational thinking. As if logical and rational thinking automatically gets you the end result of atheism and illogical and irrational thought end in theism. Why, to you, such an atheist wasn't a "true atheist" at all, but one driven out of "emotion" and was apparently just bucking the religious system. Because, any "true atheist" worth his salt is "logical" and "rational" right? And logical and rational thinking ends in atheism right?

Yeah, I can see how it would be taken that way... but it's not what I'm attempting to say. I also laughed at the post somebody had made earlier about a "True Atheist"... By no means am I trying to say that all theists are irrational and all atheists are rational. There are a lot of both types of people who fit into both categories of theism.

What I'm saying, is that from what I have read/seen/heard, an atheist who is an atheist "because" of a rational, reason-based approached to observing the natural world (including religious belief itself)... that type of atheist is far less likely to convert to being a theist than an atheist who has some other reason for being so.

I will continue for the sake of not conveying the wrong message... I believe that there are extremely rational theists in the world, now and in the past. Many of the greatest minds in science were theists. Many of the people who contribute great amounts to the different fields of science today are theists, and I would say that they are VERY rational individuals... I would also say that there are highly irrational atheists that can be found everywhere.

BUT, I also think that the productive, logical, and rational scientist who is a theist... is not applying the same level of rationality to his theistic beliefs as that person does while working in the lab.

 

[RedJamaX]

You can’t really say this until you had a NDE. .

True... I should have said "I would like to believe that I would...."

It's like asking the question, what would you do if you had a gun to your head? You don't "actually" know until you are in that situation.

 

[George-ananda]

Unfortunately our brains aren't very good at being objective about direct experience. You're right, it does often blow away "stalemated logical arguments", but it shouldn't, as any investigation of people's ability to come up with weird explanations for things that didn't actually happen shows up.

Here you are analyzing nde, miracle experiences, etc. as an outsider. I am talking from the experiencer's perspective. If they feel certain it was a real experience then it can change their worldview. We can argue all day on how us outsiders should think about it.

 

[psychoslice]

But what happens when that 'true thinking atheist' has, for example, a near-death experience he feels certain was real?

Happens often too. As I said in the previous post...A direct experience blows away the stalemated logical arguments.

But what has a near death experience got to do with joining a religion, a NDE, is just that, its not death, and it has been proven that the brain produces a chemical that can make one feel the effects that are said to be experienced in a NDE,an atheist would have the sense to investegate the experience he had and not just run out and join a religion.

Because things happen to us that we cannot explain, doesn't mean its something special from some God in the sky, many years ago when something happened that could not be explained they would believe some god did it all, even thunder and lightening was thought to come from a god that wasn't very happy, and we laugh at this today.

 

[George-ananda]

But what has a near death experience got to do with joining a religion, a NDE, is just that, its not death, and it has been proven that the brain produces a chemical that can make one feel the effects that are said to be experienced in a NDE,an atheist would have the sense to investegate the experience he had and not just run out and join a religion.

Because things happen to us that we cannot explain, doesn't mean its something special from some God in the sky, many years ago when something happened that could not be explained they would believe some god did it all, even thunder and lightening was thought to come from a god that wasn't very happy, and we laugh at this today.

You're overlooking the key phrase in my quote "he feels certain was real".

I read all the time about experiencers who are well aware of all the 'naturalistic' arguments and are still absolutely convinced they experienced something more real than this physical plane.

 

[Nooj]

Can you describe the event, or events, and or realizations or experiences in your life that lead you to be a theist? Can you also define the parameters of your atheism... why were you an atheist to begin with?

i've tried to sort out before the reasons why i became an atheist, but i just can't remember. i have a bad memory.

i know i was an atheist by the age of the 12 but the circumstances around it is lost to me. i don't think i became an atheist due to logic or reason or even evidence like other atheists, because i didn't know much about logic or reason or had the capability to weigh evidence up as a child.

i can tell you what sort of atheist i was though as i grew older. i was a person who debated a lot of creationists and from there to theology. i spent a huge amount of time thinking and reading what religious people said about their religion. i was never convinced. actually, the more i listened, the more i was convinced that there was nothing there.

at that point, while i may have become an atheist for whatever reasons, i was an atheist because religion, though an inherently fascinating topic because it shows how people think and live, had no evidence that convinced me.

i can tell you that at times, i was even a strong atheist. i had experiences that suggested to me that god did not exist. looking out the window, going about my life, gave me an overwhelming feeling that god did not exist. it was actually a bodily, physical feeling that this world was all there was, that no supernatural being existed out in this world of touchable, tangible things. and these, as much as any arguments, backed up my atheism.

i don't know what led me to becoming a theist. it was within the last three years. i think it was because of personal experiences. but they're confused for me as well.

 

[philbo]

Here you are analyzing nde, miracle experiences, etc. as an outsider. I am talking from the experiencer's perspective. If they feel certain it was a real experience then it can change their worldview. We can argue all day on how us outsiders should think about it.

You were talking about from their perspective, and it may well be an experience that can change their world view, but it's not an objective one: the world hasn't changed; nothing outside their head has changed. They don't know any new truths about the world.

It has no bearing at all on existence of deities, however much the person having the experience may believe it to be the case.

 

[psychoslice]

You're overlooking the key phrase in my quote "he feels certain was real".

I read all the time about experiencers who are well aware of all the 'naturalistic' arguments and are still absolutely convinced they experienced something more real than this physical plane.

Yes I have experienced what is called Enlightenment which I have written a book about, but that doesn't mean there's a god in the sky, or any reason to run out and join a religion, its just simply what IS, its life, no big deal.

 

[George-ananda]

You were talking about from their perspective, and it may well be an experience that can change their world view, but it's not an objective one: the world hasn't changed; nothing outside their head has changed. They don't know any new truths about the world.

It has no bearing at all on existence of deities, however much the person having the experience may believe it to be the case.

It's agreed of course that nobody's experiences change the structure of the universe. But it certainly can change that person's beliefs about the universe. The whole discussion here is about what can change an atheist to a theist. I'm not sure where else you were heading with that reply.

 

[George-ananda]

Yes I have experienced what is called Enlightenment which I have written a book about, but that doesn't mean there's a god in the sky, or any reason to run out and join a religion, its just simply what IS, its life, no big deal.

It'a a 'given' that there are different experiences and different people are affected differently.

The subject I'm addressing is 'what can change an atheist to a theist'.

 

[psychoslice]

It'a a 'given' that there are different experiences and different people are affected differently.

The subject I'm addressing is 'what can change an atheist to a theist'.

I see what you are saying, but my point is why, why bother, that's just the way i see it of course.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My hypothesis is based on the conversion stories that I am familiar with.

Your 'hypothesis' is as worthless as it is self serving.

 

[Windwalker]

I can't see how a true thinking atheist could turn to theism, its like realizing your teddy bear isn't real, and then pretending he is.

Some atheists out think themselves being an atheist, and what they embrace is no teddy bear.

 

[RedJamaX]

But what has a near death experience got to do with joining a religion,

Many of the NDEs, including the ones which were induced by taking the drug DMT, included the manifestation of another being that acted as a guide into "another world", which is often translated as an "afterlife". Therefore, I can see how an NDE could influence an individual to take on a religion.

Many of the NDE's documented include a vision of which ever figure represents the religion that individual was influenced by at one point in their life, and that may have an effect of which religion the person might choose to follow.

Now, before people start the claims of the thing where they read about an atheist who never believed in god, then had an NDE and it was a vision of Jesus, or Mohammed, or Vishna.... All it takes is one significant memory, or image to be conjured up by our brain, it doesn't even need to be prompted by any significant experience... Which means it was not required that the individual had ever even been influenced by the religion that his brain chose to manifest during the NDE... So the "atheist converted because he saw Jesus" argument isn't going to convinve anyone....

Didn't I say earlier that I was trying to keep this thread from becoming a discussion about NDEs....

 

[StarryNightshade]

Well, I can only speak for me, but just like when I "deconverted" to atheism at age 13 due to evidence I saw of there not being a God; when I "reconverted" to theism, I saw evidence of there being a God. Evidence which, is not scientific or measurable, but it works for me. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I didn't go through a traumatic event and the God concept I believe in is not omnipotence,omniscient or omnibenevolent.

 

[RedJamaX]

Your 'hypothesis' is as worthless as it is self serving.

Everything is self-serving to one degree or another... even cooperation, altruism and philanthropy... and your comments are self-serving as well...

but that's not the topic of this thread.

 

[George-ananda]

I see what you are saying, but my point is why, why bother, that's just the way i see it of course.

Why bother?? Why bother with what? Isn't everyone interested in knowing more about the nature of the universe? And many, such as myself, believe I have found many answers.

 

[George-ananda]

Many of the NDEs, including the ones which were induced by taking the drug DMT, included the manifestation of another being that acted as a guide into "another world", which is often translated as an "afterlife". Therefore, I can see how an NDE could influence an individual to take on a religion.

Many of the NDE's documented include a vision of which ever figure represents the religion that individual was influenced by at one point in their life, and that may have an effect of which religion the person might choose to follow.

Now, before people start the claims of the thing where they read about an atheist who never believed in god, then had an NDE and it was a vision of Jesus, or Mohammed, or Vishna.... All it takes is one significant memory, or image to be conjured up by our brain, it doesn't even need to be prompted by any significant experience... Which means it was not required that the individual had ever even been influenced by the religion that his brain chose to manifest during the NDE... So the "atheist converted because he saw Jesus" argument isn't going to convinve anyone....

Didn't I say earlier that I was trying to keep this thread from becoming a discussion about NDEs....

I was all set to jump in with a counter to some of what you said.

But your last sentence stopped me. (and that's probably a good thing for all )

 

[psychoslice]

Some atheists out think themselves being an atheist, and what they embrace is no teddy bear.

Well maybe not a teddy bear, but a big daddy lol.

 

[psychoslice]

Why bother?? Why bother with what? Isn't everyone interested in knowing more about the nature of the universe? And many, such as myself, believe I have found many answers.

The nature of the universe is wonderful, but you wont find it in religion.