What kind of atheist converts to a theist?

[Heim]

People change as they grow older. Through the years people may have experiences that causes them to lose their faith, or gain faith.

 

[TheMusicTheory]

I witnessed a friend make wild swings from one extreme to another.

He began as a fairly hardline agnostic. Then he attended a university that is pretty well known as a stomping ground for evengelicals and low and behold, he suddenly flipped to Christianity.

Once out of college, with the memories apparently turning hazy, he did a COMPLETE 180 into serious, hardline atheism. The kind that holds religion in complete contempt.

And then, one day, in a narrative that remains fuzzy by his own admission, he got drunk one night and said he had a "vision" or something.

Now he's the most hardline Catholic you could ever possibly meet.

What I'm saying here is that some people are candles in the wind, wishy-washy by nature, and lack the courage of their convictions (no matter what those convictions are).

 

[LuisDantas]

What I'm saying here is that some people are candles in the wind, wishy-washy by nature, and lack the courage of their convictions (no matter what those convictions are).

I wonder if courage is even an appropriate word here. Maybe it is not a big deal if people oscillate in their convictions about the existence of gods.

 

[Athan]

You are taking a few premises for granted here, and I will not necessarily share them all, so I truly don't know how much of that question even makes sense for me.

That said, generally speaking the answer would be that I rely on other people as I see fit or need, and on certain phylosophical stances that I have adopted.

Not sure how significant that is, though.

The point is, you don't have a perfected being to rely on. Taking direction from friends can be good, but taking direction from God is always good, in fact it's the best direction you can ever hope to receive.

You have no desire, because you embrace limitations.

And yes, there are joyful gifts from friends. But that's where it ends.

Uh? The scientific method is for sciences. I am not a living avatar of science or anything similar to that to exist only in function of the scientific method. I am a human being.

Fair enough. Most atheists I speak to in these forums use science as a weapon. It's refreshing to see an atheist who doesn't.

That is a caricature, and it is dangerous to extrapolate to me from it.

It's an observation.

 

[LuisDantas]

The point is, you don't have a perfected being to rely on. Taking direction from friends can be good, but taking direction from God is always good, in fact it's the best direction you can ever hope to receive.

Actually, that is simply not true. Attempting to learn from God is not consistently benefitial. Quite far from it, in fact. To many people it is all-out prejudicial, even.

You have no desire, because you embrace limitations.

What does "to embrace limitations" mean? I have no idea.

And yes, there are joyful gifts from friends. But that's where it ends.

True enough.

Fair enough. Most atheists I speak to in these forums use science as a weapon. It's refreshing to see an atheist who doesn't.

I fear you have misunderstood the intent of those other atheists then. To the extent that science is a weapon used by atheists, it is usually only suitable for self-defense.

It's an observation.

A grossly misguided and mistaken one. You really should reconsider it.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The point is, you don't have a perfected being to rely on. Taking direction from friends can be good, but taking direction from God is always good, in fact it's the best direction you can ever hope to receive.

I doubt the 911 victims would agree with you. Their attackers took direction from a perfected being, and look how that turned out.

 

[Windwalker]

I doubt the 911 victims would agree with you. Their attackers took direction from a perfected being, and look how that turned out.

Actually, they took direction from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Actually, they took direction from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

I doubt they would have taken Mohammed's direction except that a perfect God approved of their plans.

 

[Windwalker]

I doubt they would have taken Mohammed's direction except that a perfect God approved of their plans.

The point remains, they did not take direction from God. They may have believed God sanctioned their actions, but then everyone finds some rationalization to justify their actions like this, whether it's God, Country, or the Almighty Corporate Interest. Golly, aren't we pure because engage in war for greed, instead of God.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The point remains, they did not take direction from God. They may have believed God sanctioned their actions, but then everyone finds some rationalization to justify their actions like this, whether it's God, Country, or the Almighty Corporate Interest. Golly, aren't we pure because engage in war for greed, instead of God.

So you're saying that no one can ever claim to be directed by God?

 

[LuisDantas]

So you're saying that no one can ever claim to be directed by God?

The way I see it, anyone can. But no one has any duty whatsoever to take such claims seriously.

 

[Willamena]

So you're saying that no one can ever claim to be directed by God?

Do you mean "hearing voices"? Those people tend to get locked up. Otherwise, for most folks, direction from God would be no different than from their conscience, their intentions and their agendas.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Do you mean "hearing voices"? Those people tend to get locked up.

Or, elected to the Presidency.

 

[Athan]

Actually, that is simply not true. Attempting to learn from God is not consistently benefitial. Quite far from it, in fact. To many people it is all-out prejudicial, even.

I suppose this makes sense from a humanistic point of view.

What does "to embrace limitations" mean? I have no idea.

it means you have grown comfortable with a limited state of existence.

I fear you have misunderstood the intent of those other atheists then. To the extent that science is a weapon used by atheists, it is usually only suitable for self-defense.

I think it's more along the lines I've what I described than it is what you described.

A grossly misguided and mistaken one. You really should reconsider it.

That would be dishonest. It's better to stick with what I see rather than what you say.

 

[Windwalker]

So you're saying that no one can ever claim to be directed by God?

How do we go from your statement that the 9/11 terrorists were directed by God (which I don't believe any of those involved ever claimed God came up with the plan and gave them marching orders), to "no one" ever claiming God directed them to kill someone? I'm not talking about schizophrenics, I'm talking about 9/11.

 

[LuisDantas]

I suppose this makes sense from a humanistic point of view.

As well as from any other that is reasonably honest.

it means you have grown comfortable with a limited state of existence.

Shouldn't everyone?

I think it's more along the lines I've what I described than it is what you described.

Well, that is pretty unlikely.

That would be dishonest. It's better to stick with what I see rather than what you say.

If that is indeed what you see, then sure.

 

[George-ananda]

Shouldn't everyone?

(The above was LuisDantas response to the statement by Athan..."
it means you have grown comfortable with a limited state of existence.")

No, that is exactly what we shouldn't do if we believe in the eastern/vedic view. We are limitless 'Brahman' breaking the illusion of limitedness.

 

[LuisDantas]

(The above was LuisDantas response to the statement by Athan..."
it means you have grown comfortable with a limited state of existence.")

No, that is exactly what we shouldn't do if we believe in the eastern/vedic view. We are limitless 'Brahman' breaking the illusion of limitedness.

That statement, like so many others, must be understood in the proper context. Not that such a context is immediately clear, but I think it is fairly clear that it is not wrong to accept that I am a mortal and not all-powerful.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The way I see it, anyone can. But no one has any duty whatsoever to take such claims seriously.

Yeah, but when they fly an airliner into your skyscraper, you've got to take them seriously.

It's why I always try to unsettle their claims of God-direction.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Do you mean "hearing voices"? Those people tend to get locked up. Otherwise, for most folks, direction from God would be no different than from their conscience, their intentions and their agendas.

That's your opinion and mine, but those who claim to be God-directed often see it differently. They believe themselves to be directed by the preaching of a prophet, as set down in some scripture.

They'll deny that they are following themselves. They're following God.