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What Makes Hitler Evil?

yippityyak

Member
I tend to agree with you. To make his crimes seem less than what they are only allows or shows others out there that they are free to do this again.

We have given Hitler a martyr status, which is probably exactly what he wanted.

What would any of you tell your kids about Hitler? I know I would tell my son that he was evil. Because saying he was just sick would give opportunity for more devious behaviour to present itself on this earth!
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Those who do not believe in moral absolutes will encounter difficulties when trying to describe Hitler.

Since I do not harbor any such debilitation, I can with confidence and moral authority denounce Hitler and everything he stood for as being purely evil, which I would do to my dying breath and with a gun pointed to my head.

In order to understand some of the common misperceptions (some of which unfortunately have reared their head on RF and HERE) I took a year out of my years of academia to take part in an advanced, in-depth study of the Holocaust. One thing I took away with me: it is nothing less than moral equivalence and indecisiveness of the general populace that allowed him to accomplish so much evil.

What I learned shocked me. I would encourage anyone who has the time or inclination to study the Holocaust in depth and to speak personally with any survivors of the concentration camps about their experiences (so few are left), or to read their books.

Also of interest are the many psychological studies conducted to determine exactly how much coercion is needed to get "the average citizen on the street" to inflict pain or damage on another person.

The unwillingness to stand up against a majority view, the willingness to accept and believe propaganda when everyone else is doing it too, the fear and "respect" of authority in all its forms from the media to the local neighborhood 'brotherhood' ... all these things made it quite easy for Hitler to dream of killing millions of people and brainwash millions more into doing it for him. The German people weren't robots, and they weren't that different from any other people anywhere.

Make no mistake. It could happen in any country, any time.

The Nazi regime had an obsessive need to document every detail of what they did. Towards the end, in panic, they tried to burn the thousands of miles of film footage and millions of pages of documents they knew would their undoing. But by then it was too late. Much of this material remains intact. I have seen hours and hours of these tapes and they sickened me, as they would any rational, moral human being.

There are exceptions. One incident recorded in the Austrian countryside: the local villagers had enthusiastically rounded up several Jewish families and had them brought to a barn. An SS officer nearby took a unit of men to the place and lined the Jews up against the side of the barn and ordered them to fire when ready. One of the young soldiers calmly asked for a moment to prepare. Then he took off his helmet, ripped off his insignia and removed his dogtags, placing them in the helmet. He handed it and his rifle to the officer. He walked to the line of Jews who were all holding hands awaiting their deaths, and joined hands with them, before the firing squad did what they went there to do.

There was individual resistance. Just not much of it was recorded, as by then Hitler had perfected the fine art of strangling and controlling all communication.

Do many of us today realize the depth of Hitler's sadomasochistic zeal to destroy and engage the German people as active participants in his campaigns of destruction... How many people know what lengths he went to to try to destroy every man, woman and child in Berlin before he killed himself... He ordered them all into the underground shelters and sewer system and then told his officers to flood it all.

Fortunately by then there were enough of them who saw his madness and refused to do it. Some were smart enough to kill themselves in the underground bunker with Hitler and Eva to avoid the trials they knew would come; others escaped to places like Argentina and Bolivia and lived long enough to see their grandchildren. Some were caught by people like Simon Wiesenthal, whom I had the honor of seeing in person. I would encourage anyone who is interested in the stories from those who were there to read anything by him or Elie Wiesel who said:

Never shall I forget that night, the first night in camp, which has turned my life into one long night, seven times cursed and seven times sealed. Never shall I forget that smoke. Never shall I forget the little faces of the children, whose bodies I saw turned into wreaths of smoke beneath a silent blue sky.
Never shall I forget those flames which consumed my faith forever.
Never shall I forget that nocturnal silence which deprived me, for all eternity, of the desire to live. Never shall I forget those moments which murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to dust. Never shall I forget these things, even if I am condemned to live as long as God Himself. Never.



 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Moon Woman said:
One thing I took away with me: it is nothing less than moral equivalence and indecisiveness of the general populace that allowed him to accomplish so much evil.
This was an excellent post and I agree with almost all of it MW. But I would point out that it's important not to confuse "moral equivalence" with the indecisive and fear driven herd mentality you describe throughout the rest of your excellent post. The danger in doing so it that we might lose sight of the fact that Holocaust was justified by appeal to "moral" arguments by very decisive people.

What people were asked to go along was dressed up in such a way that it didn't seem so unreasonable to them that they couldn't go along with it. But the freethinker is watchful for the possibililty that such things often take the guise of the "just" "right" and "good." And on every occassion, those freethinkers are demonized for moral equivalence, lack of patriotism, etc.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
doppelgänger said:
This was an excellent post and I agree with almost all of it MW. But I would point out that it's important not to confuse "moral equivalence" with the indecisive and fear driven herd mentality you describe throughout the rest of your excellent post. The danger in doing so it that we might lose sight of the fact that Holocaust was justified by appeal to "moral" arguments by very decisive people.

What people were asked to go along was dressed up in such a way that it didn't seem so unreasonable to them that they couldn't go along with it. But the freethinker is watchful for the possibililty that such things often take the guise of the "just" "right" and "good." And on every occassion, those freethinkers are demonized for moral equivalence, lack of patriotism, etc.

To confuse freethinking and moral equivalence is a right afforded to every American.

However, one has nothing to do with the other.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Stimpleton said:
Actually, he was a catholic.
Mein Kampf is full of ideas about the way the Catholic Church operates to control large groups of individuals, and Hitler's ideas about how he could improve on its methods in his National Socialism.

Whether he was "really" a Catholic adherent or not, he certainly used Christian imagery to justify his power and policies. For example, this speech by Hitler in 1922:

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.


In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.


Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.


As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .


And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.


When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.""
 

Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
Sunstone said:
What makes Hitler evil? If you don't like the term evil, then what makes Hitler bad? That is to ask, on what grounds do you determine that someone or their actions are evil or bad?

Do you judge them by the consequences of their actions? If so, how do you determine those consequences are evil or bad?

Do you judge them by some absolute standard of morality? If so, how do you know that absolute standard of morality? Is your notion that that standard is absolute based on reason or faith?

Given that Hitler did somethings which can be considered evil and somethings which can be considered good, what does it mean to say Hitler was evil or bad? Is that not a shallow judgement?

What is the use or purpose of calling someone evil or bad? What, if anything, does it serve to illuminate?

I don't think he was truly evil or bad. The things he brought about were not exactly good, but I have a hard time saying that they were evil/bad. My reasoning is that he felt (probably) that he was doing the right thing; to others, these things were definition of evil. I don't know where I heard this quote from but "Truly evil people don't know that they are evil, they still think they're on the good side."

But he is answering to the some 6 million people who tragically lost their lives because of him.

I think that the purpose of calling someone evil or bad only serves to categorize. We people work and remember things based on patterns that we recognize, and what better way to teach children what to do and what not to do is to "list" them on one side or the other.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hitler didn't kill anyone. It's even questionable weather he gave direct orders for many of the Nazi atrocities. The one occasion where he witnessed the aftermath of a mass killing he vomited and was visibly shaken.

Hitler is a symbol.

Hitler held many racist and patriotic ideas, but we meet many people every day just as patriotic and racist as Hitler. Hitler merely, by chance, found himself in a position where his ideas could be efficiently translated into action. It was those who translated Hitler's racism into actions that reap the karma for their actions.

The blame for an evil act falls primarily upon the individual performing the act. One's sergeant, general or president cannot take the evil of the act upon himself. Only One man makes this claim -- and He is two thousand years gone.

The blame for the Nazi atrocities redounds to the individuals directly performing each evil act. If one presses a button opening a plane's bomb-bay, and a child is killed by one of the bombs, the person pressing the button has committed murder and will reap his reward in full. No person (officer) has the moral right to command another to perform an evil act, and no subordinate may perform an evil act on orders from another without reaping the full karmic blame for that act.

Hitler cannot take the sins of the Nazis upon himself. Every person is individually responsible for every individual act he commits.
 

FatMan

Well-Known Member
Gentoo said:
I think that the purpose of calling someone evil or bad only serves to categorize. We people work and remember things based on patterns that we recognize, and what better way to teach children what to do and what not to do is to "list" them on one side or the other.

I think you overestimate the intelligence of our society. When groups of people can make arguments that the Holocaust never happened or that mass genocide can still take place recently in Africa or in Serbia, then you start to realize that categorization is necessary.

Otherwise, I'd fear that people like Hitler would become martyrs by those who try to think "out of the box" just to be different.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Seyorni said:
Hitler cannot take the sins of the Nazis upon himself. Every person is individually responsible for every individual act he commits.
In this case do you differentiate between mandatory orders or completely free will murder? Is a serial killer on the same playing field as a Nazi lieutentant who is complying with military orders?

Also, certainly you have to hold Hilter responsible for being the mastermind behind the Holocaust, correct?
 

KingNothing

Member
Gentoo said:
I don't think he was truly evil or bad. The things he brought about were not exactly good, but I have a hard time saying that they were evil/bad. My reasoning is that he felt (probably) that he was doing the right thing; to others, these things were definition of evil. I don't know where I heard this quote from but "Truly evil people don't know that they are evil, they still think they're on the good side."

Nonsense. It it precisely his view of what was right that made Hitler evil. If millions of deaths aren't bad, what is?
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Who authorized the killings?

Hitler authorized the mass killing of those labelled by the Nazis as "undesirables" in the T-4 Euthanasia Program. Hitler encouraged the killings of the Jews of Eastern Europe by the Einsatzgruppen death squads in a speech in July, 1941, though he almost certainly approved the mass shootings earlier. A mass of evidence suggests that sometime in the fall of 1941, Himmler and Hitler agreed in principle on the complete mass extermination of the Jews of Europe by gassing, with Hitler explicitly ordering the "annihilation of the Jews" in a speech on December 12, 1941 (see Final Solution). To make for smoother intra-governmental cooperation in the implementation of this "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Question", the Wannsee conference was held near Berlin on January 20, 1942, with the participation of fifteen senior officials, led by Reinhard Heydrich and Adolf Eichmann, the records of which provide the best evidence of the central planning of the Holocaust. Just five weeks later on February 22, Hitler was recorded saying "We shall regain our health only by eliminating the Jew" to his closest associates.
Arguments that no documentation links Hitler to "the Holocaust" ignore the records of his speeches kept by Nazi leaders such as Joseph Goebbels and rely on artificially limiting the Holocaust to exclude what we do have documentation on, such as the T-4 Euthanasia Program and the Kristallnacht pogrom.

--- Wikipedia

Hitler's speeches: He publicly and repeatedly called for "cleansing" and included in his diatribes were Jews and anyone not meeting his Aryan standards.

See also:
Geli Raubal
The Night of the Long Knives
 
A

A. Leaf

Guest
Anybody that kills another individual would be breaking the divine rule of love, I am sure the lord almighty would forgive an individual who had to kill a killer as a last resort or as an act of self defence as long as that act self defence was to protect Intelligent creation and evolution. I as an individual do not believe in the death penalty, life in prison, ok, Inheritance of the soul is down to the creator of all things.
Hitler was an Evil, narrow minded man yet, he was encouraged and financialy aided on his pathway to the invasion of Poland and beyond. So Many Individuals lost their lives, and especially the USSR, made up of many countrys of course, and China, both lost collossal amounts of men and women. And dont forget the ammounts of Innocent Germans and Japanese that were manipulated into fighting who lost their lives as well. And here we are again soldiers still being killed, poverty, famine, green issues, corruption......2 World Wars...laugh or cry, I've stopped crying and I'm certainly not laughing.
 

Ulver

Active Member
By these standards we could say Andrew Jackson is Evil.

Evil and Good are limitations that we place upon the world. They are hardly things that are objective. The world is not one where the Angels of Heaven fight the Demons of Hell with eventually one defeating the other. The world is a mix of light and dark, yet neither of these are good or evil by their very nature. The same as it is that the world is filled with birth/creation and death/destruction. We label one good and the other evil. Yet we are often blind to their interaction and dependence upon each other. With no Light there is nothing to define the darkness. Without Darkness there is nothing to define light. Without Birth there is no Death. Without Death there is no Birth. Of course this is hard for most people here because this reality has been unpopular with much of western culture (including Islamic/ Middle East) for centuries.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Ulver said:
By these standards we could say Andrew Jackson is Evil.

Evil and Good are limitations that we place upon the world. They are hardly things that are objective. The world is not one where the Angels of Heaven fight the Demons of Hell with eventually one defeating the other. The world is a mix of light and dark, yet neither of these are good or evil by their very nature. The same as it is that the world is filled with birth/creation and death/destruction. We label one good and the other evil. Yet we are often blind to their interaction and dependence upon each other. With no Light there is nothing to define the darkness. Without Darkness there is nothing to define light. Without Birth there is no Death. Without Death there is no Birth. Of course this is hard for most people here because this reality has been unpopular with much of western culture (including Islamic/ Middle East) for centuries.

:clap:clap:clap:clap
 

McBell

Unbound
FatMan said:
In my opinion, Hitler was evil because he advocated and pushed the extermination of a people simply because of their beliefs. He purposely led a propoganda campaign to make a section of the population appear to be non-human.

I can overlook the actions he took during War - I cannot overlook crimes against humanity
Deuteronomy 13:7-12
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
Numbers 25:1-9

Buttercup said:
In this case do you differentiate between mandatory orders or completely free will murder?
With mans law, yes.
For some reason I do not believe that God will simply tell those who attempt to use the "I was only following orders" defense, "Oh, my bad. Come right on in."

Buttercup said:
Is a serial killer on the same playing field as a Nazi lieutentant who is complying with military orders?
Perhaps not in mans law, but I bet he is From Gods point of view.

Buttercup said:
Also, certainly you have to hold Hilter responsible for being the mastermind behind the Holocaust, correct?
To some degree, yes.
But to merely lump all of what happened during the holocuast all on Hitler is not recognizing the fact that Hitler did not physically kill them all his self.

Luke Wolf said:
What makes Hitler evil? Nothing more than personal observations and opinions.
I agree.
The concepts of Good and Evil are relative.
I imagine if you were to ask Hitler if he though what he was doing was evil, he would say that it was not.

It is like the idea that Cats are evil simply because mice see tham that way.

Ulver said:
Evil and Good are limitations that we place upon the world. They are hardly things that are objective. The world is not one where the Angels of Heaven fight the Demons of Hell with eventually one defeating the other. The world is a mix of light and dark, yet neither of these are good or evil by their very nature. The same as it is that the world is filled with birth/creation and death/destruction. We label one good and the other evil. Yet we are often blind to their interaction and dependence upon each other. With no Light there is nothing to define the darkness. Without Darkness there is nothing to define light. Without Birth there is no Death. Without Death there is no Birth. Of course this is hard for most people here because this reality has been unpopular with much of western culture (including Islamic/ Middle East) for centuries.
I agree.
An action is neither Good nor Evil until a point of view is applied to it.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:

With mans law, yes.
For some reason I do not believe that God will simply tell those who attempt to use the "I was only following orders" defense, "Oh, my bad. Come right on in."
Using this logic you must feel all of our soliders in Iraq are evil?

To some degree, yes.
But to merely lump all of what happened during the holocuast all on Hitler is not recognizing the fact that Hitler did not physically kill them all his self.
So bascially, George Bush AND each and every soldier in Iraq is guilty of evil?
 
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