What makes somebody atheist and not a theist?

[Willamena]

What makes somebody atheist and not a theist?

Generally, not believing in god or gods.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What @Sgt. Pepper refers to is paranormal, not supernatural.

I've used the terms supernatural and paranormal interchangeably (i.e., read here). In my opinion, they are similar to each other.

And notice she no longer believes in the sort of creationist God, so be careful not to embellish and distort what others say as you try to seek support and credibility for dubious claims and criticisms.

That is correct. As I explained in the following post, I no longer believe in the biblical God and now doubt his existence.

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

I am personally struggling with this topic. As I started out by saying, I'm highly reluctant to make statements about God's nature. Because I interact with God, it is very difficult for me not to think of him in terms of a "person." However, it is also true that I perceive God imperfectly...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You see, my understanding allows for, & explains, the incidents surrounding invisible intelligent entities that @Sgt. Pepper has described, and numerous other rational & respectable posters.
I don’t have to dismiss their accounts to the “mistaken” bin.

As I've tried to explain to you (for example, read here) and @F1fan (for example, read here) before, Hockeycowboy, I believe that it's pointless to spend my time trying to convince atheists and other skeptics to believe in paranormal (supernatural) phenomena as I do. Frankly, I mean no offense to skeptics when I say this, but it doesn't matter to me if they choose not to believe in the paranormal (or call it supernatural) as I do because their skepticism doesn't change my personal beliefs in it or negate any of the experiences that I've had with it. As I've stated many times in my posts relating to the paranormal, skeptics can decide for themselves whether they want to believe me or not. I've never once tried to persuade any skeptics that I converse with online or in person to believe in the paranormal, and I don't intend to start now. I wish that you'd respect that and refrain from referring to my beliefs and experiences in your attempts to prove supernatural phenomena to the atheists and other skeptics on this forum. I don't like to be brought into these kinds of debates.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And what evidence is there that they don't?

For the lack of evidence to stand as evidence there has to be a specific and logical expectation of what that evidence would be, and a means of ascertaining it, if it is there. We (you) have none of this. And not findng what we don't know how to look for or even identify if we found it does not logically equate to any form of evidence.

Then you might as well believe that gooblodockblobo exists.


If you can't describe what the evidence should look like, if you can't say what we should and shouldn't see, if you can't even describe the difference between a universe with a god and a universe without a god.... then what on earth are you talking about when you use the word "god"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Theism is a faith choice, not an evidence choice. The faith choice occurs prior to the evidence returned.

IOW, just like gooblydockblobo

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Except that whatever the source of “the natural order” is, it is by definition, itself, “supernatural”.

What definition would that be?

I don’t care about religion. I care about our being honest and logical in our reasoning, and then honest with each other. The idea of a supernatural cause or realm of reality is not illogical, no matter how much you dislike it. In fact, whatever the origin of existence as we know it is, it is by definition “supernatural”.

Again, what definition would that be?

And since everything about existence as we know it points to a singular, specific origin, we’re going to have to accept that the “supernatural” is a very significant aspect of the truth of what is.

So far all you have done is assert this.

 

[stvdv]

Why do you see it as a "lack of"
something?
Like
"Those guys lack tapeworms
Or communist brainwashing
Or a passion for Rhodesian stick- ball."

What do theists lack?

Why I used "lack of":

Well, I remembered Atheists teaching me on RF "Atheism means lack of belief in God(s)".

What do Theists lack?
1) Some lack God experiences (they believe)
2) lack respect when belittling other (a)theists
3) lack ...

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What @Sgt. Pepper refers to is paranormal, not supernatural.

Lol…
Actually, she specifically posts about spirits, which are classed as supernatural beings.
It’s all paranormal….
To try to differentiate between the two, is just wanting to argue.

And the subject of my posts is about our experience as the source of interacting patterns of complexity… it’s intelligence. Your changing that to gods, are just strawmen….without even attempting to answer my questions to support your side of the issue, you baselessly argue against mine.

Yep…
“Not open to any agreement.”

You’ve unwittingly given credence to the Scripture I quoted.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And the subject of my posts is about our experience as the source of interacting patterns of complexity… it’s intelligence.

The weather is the result of interacting patterns of complexity.
So I guess there is a Poseidon-like entity that controls the weather? Indra perhaps?

 

[F1fan]

Lol…
Actually, she specifically posts about spirits, which are classed as supernatural beings.
It’s all paranormal….
To try to differentiate between the two, is just wanting to argue.

She corrected what I understood of her definitions and word use. My personal judgment is that there could be something going on that paranormal investigators find, but I would not classify this as supernatural, at least not on the same category as gods, angels, demons, spirits, and other religious concepts. To my mind supernatural is synonymous with imaginary. "Supernatural" is an absurd word as commonly defined. I further suggest that anything we can detect is natural, even if unknow to the fullest extent. Let's note that paranormal investigators have presented evidence that is interesting, and vastly more substantial than anything theists provide as evidence for their gods, demons, angels, etc.

And the subject of my posts is about our experience as the source of interacting patterns of complexity… it’s intelligence.

The claims are that nature is designed, and this implies a deliberate intent. Wouldn't that mean that a human being alive experiences this intelligent design just by existing? What are you claiming that is anything more than this?

The phrase "source of interacting patterns of complexity" sounds overly exaggerated and empty. What actual fact does this phrase apply to, what source, exactly?

And what fact is there that the source is intelligent versus an automatic function as we see with the behavior of energy?

Your changing that to gods, are just strawmen….without even attempting to answer my questions to support your side of the issue, you baselessly argue against mine.

We are talking about gods, namely those that diverse theists think exists outside of their imaginations. Atheists are asking believers why they decided that some sort of god exists versus non-belief. Let's note that most every believer must reject all gods that are not part of their learned framework, so in a sense are atheists themselves. I've heard Christians refer to Hindus as atheists since Hindus don't recognize the Abrahamic set of god definitions.

Yep…
“Not open to any agreement.”

You’ve unwittingly given credence to the Scripture I quoted.

And how does this not apply to you, and any theist that rejects the logic presented by atheists? See how believers assume they are correct as justified by faith, not reason?

I would agree with anything in the Bible that makes a true statement. If it says "water is wet" I would agree. I would not agree that it is a truth that isn't obvious, like references to gods and magic.

There are many texts in the Bible that appear to be coercive, and aimed to offer some obvious truth that any ordinary person would already understand. For example, the 'beware of wolves in sheep's clothing' is an example, and it's taught that the preachers are not the wolves, ironically. It takes a certain amount of cleverness and wisdom to properly understand such texts, but as we see many Christian leaders use the naivete and ignorance of their flock to exploit and coerce belief that are negative and divisive.

The writers surely knew they had to include something that was inherently true to help prop up the Bible's credibility with all the non-factual and absurd things it says.

 

[Valjean]

Why I used "lack of":

Well, I remembered Atheists teaching me on RF "Atheism means lack of belief in God(s)".

What do Theists lack?
1) Some lack God experiences (they believe)
2) lack respect when belittling other (a)theists
3) lack ...

Theism, unlike atheism, isn't defined by any lack of belief or non-belief; quite the opposite.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

She corrected what I understood of her definitions and word use.

And I hope I did so respectfully.

My personal judgment is that there could be something going on that paranormal investigators find, but I would not classify this as supernatural, at least not on the same category as gods, angels, demons, spirits, and other religious concepts. To my mind supernatural is synonymous with imaginary. "Supernatural" is an absurd word as commonly defined. I further suggest that anything we can detect is natural, even if unknow to the fullest extent.

As a paranormal investigator, I'm aware that some unusual phenomena have natural causes, but I don't think this is the case for all of them. In regards to conducting a paranormal investigation, I believe that there must be a fair balance between belief and skepticism, and I strive to achieve this balance when investigating a suspected haunted location. However, in spite of all the advanced, cutting-edge ghost-hunting equipment that I utilize (most of which is listed here), there are still some paranormal encounters that I'm unable to accurately document because they happen so quickly and end just as quickly as they began. Finally, I've already explained how I conduct my investigations, so if anyone is interested in knowing what I normally do, they can read my post here. I'd like to re-emphasize that researching and investigating the paranormal isn't something that I take lightly. I've devoted many years of my life to it.

Let's note that paranormal investigators have presented evidence that is interesting, and vastly more substantial than anything theists provide as evidence for their gods, demons, angels, etc.

This is my sentiments exactly.

 

[Audie]

Theism, unlike atheism, isn't defined by any lack of belief or non-belief; quite the opposite.

Theism is an add- on. Like having a tapweworm.
Or psittacosis.

I lack any of those.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Let's note that paranormal investigators have presented evidence that is interesting, and vastly more substantial than anything theists provide as evidence for their gods, demons, angels, etc.

In addition to what I wrote in my prior post, I'd also like to say that, as someone who has avidly investigated the paranormal for many years, I'll be the first person to admit that I'll never pretend to have all the answers about how to accurately define the paranormal. What I mean is that there are many ways for me to learn more about human spirits, non-human entities, and the paranormal in general. With the depth of experience I have, I know how important it is for me to open my mind to new possibilities, that I continue to challenge my expectations, and that I also consider other perspectives and new theories relating to researching and investigating the paranormal. As every serious veteran paranormal investigator knows, genuine research and investigation of the paranormal don't happen in a vacuum. It involves working with other people who are as passionate about discovering the unknown corners of human existence as I am. Quite honestly, working with these people that I know or have met through mutual friends has allowed me to grow into the person I am today. It has stretched the boundaries of my thinking and taught me to think outside the box as well as develop my own way to investigate and research the paranormal. It has also encouraged me to seek definitive answers to my own experiences with supernatural phenomena (as I described here). Despite my efforts, however, I've yet to find any scientific tests that accurately explain what I experience and have experienced since I was six years old. Needless to say, I haven't found any conclusive answers. There are only more questions and new experiences that have strengthened my belief in the supernatural.

 

[stvdv]

Theism, unlike atheism, isn't defined by any lack of belief or non-belief; quite the opposite.

I didn't define Theism. I just answered a very specific question "what do theists lack".

 

[Hockeycowboy]

As I've tried to explain to you (for example, read here) and @F1fan (for example, read here) before, Hockeycowboy, I believe that it's pointless to spend my time trying to convince atheists and other skeptics to believe in paranormal (supernatural) phenomena as I do. Frankly, I mean no offense to skeptics when I say this, but it doesn't matter to me if they choose not to believe in the paranormal (or call it supernatural) as I do because their skepticism doesn't change my personal beliefs in it or negate any of the experiences that I've had with it. As I've stated many times in my posts relating to the paranormal, skeptics can decide for themselves whether they want to believe me or not. I've never once tried to persuade any skeptics that I converse with online or in person to believe in the paranormal, and I don't intend to start now. I wish that you'd respect that and refrain from referring to my beliefs and experiences in your attempts to prove supernatural phenomena to the atheists and other skeptics on this forum. I don't like to be brought into these kinds of debates.

I’m sorry you feel that way…. But your posts about your experiences, well-written & laden with details, are still evidence that there’s more going on in this world than natural mechanisms.

I won’t intentionally tag you anymore. There are others I can tag.
I may, however, quote your posts.

And I might respond to your posts.
You say that you “consider other perspectives”; I think there’s a limit to that.

Are you aware that, in times past (maybe even now, to certain religious people), some of these “spirits” appeared to the living as seemingly in torture & pain, as if experiencing hellfire? (That was a lie back then. Still is.) Now, it seems they manifest themselves to many as “lost and wandering.”
Do you think there might be a purpose behind these spirits’ changing tactics?

Wish you well.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lol…
Actually, she specifically posts about spirits, which are classed as supernatural beings.
It’s all paranormal….
To try to differentiate between the two, is just wanting to argue.

What's "natural" is defined descriptively: we go observe, and everything we see, we deem to be natural.

The "supernatural" is defined in opposition to the natural, so therefore implicitly, "supernatural" things are things that we don't observe.

"Paranormal," OTOH, is just "beyond the normal"... IOW, things that are rare, but still potentially observable.

So that's the difference: if you actually find a thing, it can continue to be paranormal but it wouldn't be supernatural.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I’m sorry you feel that way…. But your posts about your experiences, well-written & laden with details, are still evidence that there’s more going on in this world than natural mechanisms.

Yes, I believe this is true, but it is not my responsibility, either directly or indirectly, to convince others that it is real.

I won’t intentionally tag you anymore. There are others I can tag.
I may, however, quote your posts.

And I might respond to your posts.

Fair enough.

You say that you “consider other perspectives”; I think there’s a limit to that.

Not in my experience.

Are you aware that, in times past (maybe even now, to certain religious people), some of these “spirits” appeared to the living as seemingly in torture & pain, as if experiencing hellfire? (That was a lie back then. Still is.) Now, it seems they manifest themselves to many as “lost and wandering.”

In the forty-four and a half years that I've been able to see, hear, and sense spirits (both human and non-human), I've never seen, heard, or felt one who appeared to be in pain or tortured, as if experiencing hellfire. And in the sixteen and a half years that I've been actively using my mediumship to speak with spirits (both human and non-human), I've never spoken to one who claimed to be suffering from hellfire. In fact, I've never heard of or directly been told by another spirit medium, paranormal investigator, or anyone else who has had a paranormal experience that they encountered a spirit (either human or non-human) who appeared to them or informed them that they were in torture and pain, as if experiencing hellfire. Not once in all these many years.

I used to believe that Satan and demons existed, and this was the final vestige of my Christian indoctrination that I discarded a while back. I still think it's ironic that my realization of it and my decision to finally let go of this belief occurred while participating in a thread where the OP insisted that demons exist and claimed their existence could be proven. It was in this thread that I finally saw the light, so to speak, and I owe it to @Trailblazer, who inspired me with her detailed posts about her religious beliefs regarding Satan and demons. If you or anyone else is interested, I explained in the following posts why I no longer believe in Satan, demons, the biblical God, Jesus, or the Bible as I once did. I know that you believe differently, and that's fine with me. As far as I'm concerned, you're entitled to believe whatever you want. To be honest with you, it makes absolutely no difference to me. Believe what you want.

Where are the Dead?

Does the Bible influence what you believe, in any way. Or do you go with what feels right to you? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I hope not, I was just trying to honestly convey my thoughts. To answer your question, of course the Bible influences what I think, I was raised in...

www.religiousforums.com

Is It Reasonable to Believe Gods Don't Exist?

Oh the irony. If you aren't able to support your claims why did you make them? How are atheists not reasonable in not believing in a God? Is there a problem for you not showing us you were correct? You're doing it again.

www.religiousforums.com

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

I am personally struggling with this topic. As I started out by saying, I'm highly reluctant to make statements about God's nature. Because I interact with God, it is very difficult for me not to think of him in terms of a "person." However, it is also true that I perceive God imperfectly...

www.religiousforums.com

Do you think there might be a purpose behind these spirits’ changing tactics?

In my years of experience, they haven't. Some human spirits are cooperative, while others are not. Like living people, they can also be unpredictable and moody. There is a popular saying in the paranormal field, and that is, "Ghosts are people too." In other words, human spirits feel the same emotions as living people, but their emotions are often intensified. They can feel happiness, sadness, fear, and confusion. And if the living disrespect them, they will also become very agitated. I've experienced their emotions, and I've witnessed the terrible consequences that spirits bring upon the living as a result of people's disrespect towards them. This is why I caution others not to disrespect the dead or, worse, try to provoke the spirits in order to elicit a response.

As it is with human spirits, it is wise to be cautious of non-human entities as well. While I don't believe that these entities are what Christians and some other Abrahamic theists refer to as "demonic," there are some who are malicious and don't like humans (living or dead), so they have no qualms about harming them. I've encountered a couple that I knew instantly to steer clear of. There are others who couldn't care less about humans (living or dead) and flat-out ignored them as if they didn't even exist. In other words, like living and dead people, non-human entities can also be unpredictable and moody.

And finally, I want to be perfectly clear when I say that interacting with and communicating with these spirits isn't merely a leisurely pastime for me. I take it seriously, and I've never taken my mediumship for granted. I understand my responsibilities. I understand that as a medium, some of my responsibilities include acknowledging these spirits, listening to them, showing them compassion, finding a way to meet their needs, and, whenever possible, encouraging and assisting them in crossing over into the spirit realm. I also understand that it is my responsibility to bridge the gap between the living and the dead by addressing the needs of both. I know how important reconciliation is for both the living and dead. These spirits come to me for help, and I've never turned any of them away. I may ask them to wait until I can focus all of my attention to them, but I've never told any of them that I won't help them. To be honest, it's an honor for me to help these lost spirits. I understand that I may be the only hope they have for resolving their issues and crossing over into the spirit world. Finally, I want to emphasize my disclaimer: Everything I've written in this post reflects my personal beliefs as a spiritualist and years of experience as a medium and paranormal investigator. I don't expect you or anyone else to believe what I've said in this or any of my other posts about the paranormal.

Wish you well.

I wish you the same.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The weather is the result of interacting patterns of complexity.

I wasn’t discussing by-products / results exhibiting chaos & disorder.

Exactly what does it build?
Nothing. And there’s no function.

Yours is a strawman response, misleading and useless.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I wasn’t discussing by-products / results, was I?

Exactly what does it build?
Nothing. And there’s no function.

Yours is a strawman response, misleading and useless.

I wanted to inform you that I have edited portions of the bottom half of my previous post (#358).