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What makes you think Islam is a false religion?

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
If I accept that you love me but you don't love my beliefs(chosen, as you say) then if I say to you "I am Hindu" does that mean you hate me? Your premise means that you would. As ones identity is based largely on what they identify themselves, if I identify myself as Hindu, then logically you would hate me.

If you hate me what stops you from being violent towards me?
No I hate the choice you make because being a Hindu is the very fire I speak off that hurts your soul and it is that fire that I want to protect you from. So I maintain that Hinduism and other religions of the world are the fire that damage the soul. The choice, moreover, in my view of rejecting the one religion that is the curative of the soul and using which the soul can truly be at one with God ... the choice to reject that truth (i.e. Islam) further damages your soul. But in all cases my insisting on hating your choices is rooted in my care for you and your soul.

It is true that many have chosen their religions. It is also that many have not chosen their religion, they were born into it.
And may I add many who were born into it but subsequently researched (and continue to do so because one should always be open to accepting mistakes) upon reaching the age of maturity and came to the conclusion that they were born into the correct religion. That is my class of people.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Exactly what I am saying. How can anyone who is "mindful" hate the child? If someone does so ... if a mother does so she is stupid to say the least. Yes you have to be mindful. Maybe it is a fine line but there is a line. I can simultaneously love someone and hate what they stand for. There is no contradiction. In fact, the opposite is true. It is because I love someone that I hate what they stand for when it is tantamount to touching fire. If I didn't love them I just wouldn't care.

And that's what I mean. It's still hatred for a choice, still hatred for an ideal, still hatred for a stance. I try not to even hate such trivial things, but to love them, even if I disagree. This love helps me understand why they made such choices that I currently disagree with, and sympathize with them. And I would expect even gods such as Odin to be hugely above such standards, let alone the Big Kahuna Himself. :yes: (don't forget I'm polytheistic)
 

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
And that's what I mean. It's still hatred for a choice, still hatred for an ideal, still hatred for a stance. I try not to even hate such trivial things, but to love them, even if I disagree. This love helps me understand why they made such choices that I currently disagree with, and sympathize with them. And I would expect even gods such as Odin to be hugely above such standards, let alone the Big Kahuna Himself. :yes: (don't forget I'm polytheistic)

You don't believe in hatred for a choice? So the choice of murdering someone is the same as the choice for saving someone's life? To me there is care for the one who murders needlessly and for the one who saves lives for the sake of God (much more care for the later of course but care all the same). But to say that you do not hate the act of murder ... the choice of murder and do not care if it was the choice of saving a life ... sorry but I disagree with that.

Riverwolf there are choices that we must all hate. There are acts that we must all hate. And if you do not hate such acts and love other acts it is detestable.

Simultaneously, however, there is a care for the person committing the acts. The worry for the person's own soul. So, when a teacher punishes a student for cheating it is for the student's own good ... hopefully he will understand. When a mother slaps her child to prevent her from touching fire it is out of love. In the very same way Riverwolf I hate polytheistic beliefs. Primarily because they are an injustice to the One I love more than anyone else, namely, God. Secondarily because people who believe such things do such damage to their souls as I can not just stand and bear to watch. I must act to stop this damage. I can not force anyone but at least I can publicly detest the act of associating partners with Allah in an attempt to save as many souls as possible. And I can try to reason people out of that choice. Of course I might fail but that is okay. At least I tried. Hopefully I did my part.

You seem like a really nice person. I have seen some posts of you actually supporting Islam pretty well. And I understand that your intention in the previous post was the spread of love and care. But one must differentiate between over-caring. It is no vice to hate choices. It is a vice to not point out the mistakes of those you love. It is a vice to let them play with fire. It is a vice not to condemn such an act and not to condemn such a choice.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
No I hate the choice you make because being a Hindu is the very fire I speak off that hurts your soul and it is that fire that I want to protect you from. So I maintain that Hinduism and other religions of the world are the fire that damage the soul. The choice, moreover, in my view of rejecting the one religion that is the curative of the soul and using which the soul can truly be at one with God ... the choice to reject that truth (i.e. Islam) further damages your soul. But in all cases my insisting on hating your choices is rooted in my care for you and your soul.

It is lovely that you care for my soul. At the same time you hate who I am. That is a very fundamental aspect of who I am at this moment than my soul. In your religion there is no belief in the soul being different from the person, so you couldn't argue that you hate my ego, but love my soul. In your religion the soul is the same as the person, so if the person is a Hindu, then you hate that soul itself :)

Your views are contradictory. You cannot love something and hate it at the same time. You hate me as long as I am Hindu, and if I refuse to cease being Hindu, you will continue to hate me. You might say you really care for me and try to covert me, but if I refuse to, then your hatred for me increases.

The problem I have with Islam is this mentality that it is very loving and forgiving, but if you refuse it, then you will be destroyed. That is not loving and forgiving. That is called terrorism - "Accept this, or die"

You did not answer my question that if you hate something what is to prevent you from using violence? In the Quran non-Muslims are demonized, they are horrible and dirty things that Allah hates. If Allah hates them, what stops you from being violent towards me, surely when we are such reprehensible things, our living or dying shouldn't matter to you. Indeed if you look at your history that is how Muslims treated us hated things.

I do like the fact that you're being honest and representing Islam properly. I think people need to see the real meaning of Islam.

And may I add many who were born into it but subsequently researched (and continue to do so because one should always be open to accepting mistakes) upon reaching the age of maturity and came to the conclusion that they were born into the correct religion.

It is possible that if there is a correct religion and you can born into it. However, how is the correctness of a religion decided and is somebody who is born into it a credible witness of the correctness of that religion? I would say no, they are not credible because they have been socialised into that religion from birth itself, so they already are biassed to it. A child is not capable of rational reason, they can be moulded into anything in their formative years, if they are brought up with a belief in Allah then it becomes a part of who they are. If later when they become capable of rational reason, the assumptions are too strong, they will end up with circular reasons on why they are right. Therefore I cannot accept you as a credible witness of your religion being correct.

Myself, on the other hand have not been born a Hindu. To the religion I was born in I did not believe or practice. Most of my life I have been atheist, for a period I was nihilist, I read the Quran and Bible, and rejected both. I later got into new-age spirituality and finally I became Hindu. I would say me being a Hindu is only a few years old. So I never really had any rigid assumptions for which I would argue for, there are no biasses. This makes me a more credible witness to the correctness of my religion(Hinduism) because I am choosing it based on reason.

Why did I choose Hinduism above all other religions. I was a firm believer in Science, and like so many famous scientists that got me interested in Eastern religions, which in turn lead to Hinduism. Rationality had lead me to Hinduism. The same happened with the father of Quantum Physics Erwin Schrodinger. In fact many modern physicists and scientists turn to Hinduism. I would say they are all credible witnesses.

You don't hear scientists turning to Islam because of reason, but with Hinduism all you hear about is scientists praising it. So as far as I am concerned Hinduism has many credible witnesses attesting to its 'correctness' You can naturally see that that Science is taking us very close to religions like Hinduism and very far from religions like Islam. So Hinduism is the only true religion and future of religion.

I think you have been born into a false religion and the reason you think it is correct is because you have been brainwashed from a very young age to believe it. You have grown up believing it is the only true religion with your assumptions as your only proof. After reaching the age of maturity you have researched on Islam only to prove your assumption with your assumption(circular reasoning) and what is resulted is contradictions(such as I love you, but I hate you) but you have tried to justify those contradictions with more circular logic.

The true religion(Hinduism) says that you are in ignorance and under the forces of illusion. You will not gain salvation because your religion teaches false teachings which only make you more ignorant of the truth. You will reincarnate again(most of us will, most likely including me) and get another chance to choose another religion, until you choose Hinduism and practice its way. There is no other way.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Well I think we can call it a truce :) as the Hindu side in this argument claim they hate Islam, and the Islamic side claim they hate Hinduism (and all others beliefs..) :sarcastic
seems to me like the world still turns and all is well across the land.. :cool:
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Well I think we can call it a truce :) as the Hindu side in this argument claim they hate Islam, and the Islamic side claim they hate Hinduism (and all others beliefs..) :sarcastic
seems to me like the world still turns and all is well across the land.. :cool:

Hehe

I don't hate Islam. I must repeat that again. Instead I think Islam is ignorance and just as you wouldn't hate a child for being ignorant, likewise I don't hate Islam. However I think all religions other than Hinduism are varying degrees of ignorance, only Islam has the highest level of ignorance. If I were to construct a spectrum representing which religion is closer to knowledge which is not, it would go something like this:

I think religion can be measured and quanitifed like anything else:

1: How true is it(based on logic and scientific validity)
2: How positive/pure is it(based on its promotion of higher ideals)
3: How practical is it(based on actual practical ways of realising spiritual experiences)
4: How intersting is it(based on its diversity)

I will assign to each a maximum of 100 and then calculate the average:

(Knowledge)
100 Hinduism
90 Sikhism
80 Buddhism
70 Jainism
65 Tantra
60 Taoism
60 Gnosticism
50 Christianity
45 Zoroastrianiam
40 Shamanism
35 Paganism
20 Judaism
10 Islam
0 Satanism
(Ignorance)

This is how I rate the world religions :D
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
What makes Islam a false religion? It doesn't have spiffy costume parties, like Halloween. How can a religion not have spiffy costume parties like Halloween and be true?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
You don't believe in hatred for a choice? So the choice of murdering someone is the same as the choice for saving someone's life? To me there is care for the one who murders needlessly and for the one who saves lives for the sake of God (much more care for the later of course but care all the same). But to say that you do not hate the act of murder ... the choice of murder and do not care if it was the choice of saving a life ... sorry but I disagree with that.

Riverwolf there are choices that we must all hate. There are acts that we must all hate. And if you do not hate such acts and love other acts it is detestable.

You misunderstand what hatred is, I think. When someone commits a murder, it is sad. I weep for it, but I don't yell at the one who did it; that just burns me inside with the fire of passion. Hatred is an absolute, that of negative thoughts(or in your own terms, that of Satan), of which fear is another, and both lead to misunderstanding and spiritual blocking. What I think is important is not to 'hate' something, which means to wish something away, when most likely it will never go away (thus hatred is futile and will distract from your own spiritual growth), but to recognize when someone is doing something that is wrong and try to correct it. There's a difference between recognition and hatred. I think you mean recognition.

Simultaneously, however, there is a care for the person committing the acts. The worry for the person's own soul. So, when a teacher punishes a student for cheating it is for the student's own good ... hopefully he will understand. When a mother slaps her child to prevent her from touching fire it is out of love. In the very same way Riverwolf I hate polytheistic beliefs. Primarily because they are an injustice to the One I love more than anyone else, namely, God. Secondarily because people who believe such things do such damage to their souls as I can not just stand and bear to watch. I must act to stop this damage. I can not force anyone but at least I can publicly detest the act of associating partners with Allah in an attempt to save as many souls as possible. And I can try to reason people out of that choice. Of course I might fail but that is okay. At least I tried. Hopefully I did my part.

My polytheistic beliefs don't give the One a partner; One is One, within and without you, me, within and without Planet Neptune, the furthest Quasar, the tiniest electron, within and without the pages of the Qur'an, the pages of a porno novel, all that is. Understand, I'm not equating the masterpiece that is the Qur'an with a juvenile porno novel; my point is that in my beliefs, the (Nameless) One encompasses and penetrates all existence, whether we perceive it or not. The (Nameless) One is your Allah; one and the same. The gods are our brothers, nothing more. I treat them the way I treat my older brother: older and more experienced than me, yes, but still susceptible to great fault. (Seriously. Think of Zeus and his son Ares!) Hardly worthy of even prayer, let alone worship.

You seem like a really nice person. I have seen some posts of you actually supporting Islam pretty well. And I understand that your intention in the previous post was the spread of love and care. But one must differentiate between over-caring. It is no vice to hate choices. It is a vice to not point out the mistakes of those you love. It is a vice to let them play with fire. It is a vice not to condemn such an act and not to condemn such a choice.

Thanks. I support all that is the Word, which is Unchanged. Different cultures interpret the Word differently, and laws, details, and processes to achieve the Word apply differently depending on culture and environment. (I have a hunch that the reason desert-evolved religions such as the Abrahamic faiths are strict in hard-work because that's what was needed, and still is, simply to survive; on the other hand, forest-evolved religions are more easy-going because most substance is provided)

Of course, what is the Word? Well, I think all religions can agree, and even atheistic John Lennon knew and kept the Word. Love.

"Oh, Love!:sarcastic Of course in Italy we know nothing about Love!" :D (Sallieri, Amadeus)
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Well I think we can call it a truce :) as the Hindu side in this argument claim they hate Islam, and the Islamic side claim they hate Hinduism (and all others beliefs..) :sarcastic
seems to me like the world still turns and all is well across the land.. :cool:

matter of fact, no, it is only Suraj who hates Islam and all Muslims and it is only Tariq who says he hates religions other than Islam for leading people to fire. you generalize and we fall together. i do not hate anyone or anything.


.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
lava,

you are reading too much into my post.

also from your signature I wouldnt count on this:
i do not hate anyone or anything.
why would so many Muslims on the forum insist to bring politics into it? this is a universal ground for world religions, we shouldnt involve people with our agendas, there are political sub forums for that. should I post this *Graphic* picture of Turkish soldiers in my signature in response?
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/photos/kurdisheads.jpg
 

gnostic

The Lost One
To tariqkhwaja:

I find the child touching fire allegory to be a poor example, especially if you only link that with Hinduism alone.

Any religion has the potential to be dangerous. Every religions have their drawback and flaws.

So a person choosing Islam as his religion would be like a child touching fire, as much as they do with Hinduism.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
lava,

you are reading too much into my post.

also from your signature I wouldnt count on this: why would so many Muslims on the forum insist to bring politics into it? this is a universal ground for world religions, we shouldnt involve people with our agendas, there are political sub forums for that. should I post this *Graphic* picture of Turkish soldiers in my signature in response?
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/photos/kurdisheads.jpg

that's disgusting picture Caladan. what makes you sure those guys are Turkish? they are striking pose. can tell difference between Turk and Kurd? could you know if he was Kurdish who wore Turkish army uniform which he stole from Turkish soldiers they killed and beheaded? the pic i removed from my signature is not taken in wilderness and those soldiers are not really striking pose to make Israeli soldiers look bad.


.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
lava.

that is an infamous picture of Turkish troops, you can see it posted on the United Human Rights Council website along many other photos, many of them with graphic nature.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
It is interesting how Lava. tries to deny anything bad with Islam or Muslims, very interesting indeed; citations from the Quran are taken out of context; letters are forged; pictures are framed; history is a lie. They are soooo innocent aren't they? ;)
 

.lava

Veteran Member
It is interesting how Lava. tries to deny anything bad with Islam or Muslims, very interesting indeed; citations from the Quran are taken out of context; letters are forged; pictures are framed; history is a lie. They are soooo innocent aren't they? ;)

i am not spending my energy to force or to push people to become hateful enemies and against each other. there've always been innocent and criminal people mixed together in every nation and in every religion. that's nature of reality, until Allah divides evil from good, until evil settle in hell and the rest settle in heaven, both sides would be mixed till that day of judgement. so, Suraj, time will tell :cool:


.
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
I'm not a muslim, Suraj but I think that it is not good to put your convictions on what a person beliefs. Lava puts quotations from the Quran because they believe in it. You can put a debate here and defend your beliefs, yes, but you cannot make everyone believe your side.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
That is what I am doing Lawrence. I cannot force anyone to believe anything. But I will leave no stone unturned to make my case in any debate. In this case: Islam is a false religion.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Islam is a false religion.

Islam is not a false religion. it's followed by like 2 billion people. it is OK not to accept it if you disagree with its knowledge. i would not mind. i am a Muslim and i love Islam. you simply do not respect me as an individual, you respect no Muslim for that matter. you do not blame hatred, greed and ignorance for terror. you blame religion. discriminating people is not really a debate.


.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
I have no problem with 2 billion Muslims today. I have a problem with the religion Islam, which I consider a false religion. I consider it false because

1) It is not an original religion, it takes elements from other religions and claims its new. It takes from the Judo-Christro tradition the stories of Abraham, Jesus, and from Hinduism it takes the Kabba, prayer and cleansing rituals, Eed and the god Allah itself. The rest of it is just Mohammed progressively revealing his Quran based on his conveniance(like having special privilages such as number of wives he can have, or have the right to be adulterous)
and because it was so repulsive to people it can only be spread through violence and death threats.

2) The excessive content of violence and hatred against non-Muslims. The fact that Mohammed himself murdered people and looted them. He is certainly no holy man.

3) The horrific history of terrorism right from its inception to this very day. I still balk at thinking that his Caliphs actually ordered masscres of men, women and children with something like 20,000 at a go.

This is not a divine religion in my opinion. It's the antithesis of it.
 
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Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Suraj said:
2) The excessive content of violence and hatred against non-Muslims. The fact that Mohammed himself murdered people and looted them. He is certainly no holy man.

3) The horrific history of terrorism right from its inception to this very day. I still balk at thinking that his Caliphs actually ordered masscres of men, women and children with something like 20,000 at a go.

Islam is certainly guilty of all these crimes against humanity; however, Judaism and Christianity are stained with equal blood. The only reason we do not notice these vicious trends in Christianity and Judaism today is that the Judeo-Christian religions of today are a blend of original religion with Humanism. This is precisely why we (Atheists, Agnostics, Free-thinkers) must empower Moderate Muslims. Our old friend, Djamila, once said that she would stand up to God, Himself, if He sent her Catholic sister-in-law to Hell. She is the kind of Muslim that makes me so proud.
 
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