What makes you think Islam is a false religion?

[Sententia]

LOL!!! I wasn't comparing Tolkien's works to the Qur'an. I was stating my feeling on deserving in response to Darkendless' statement.

Besides, I'm a nerd who loves LOVES LOVES high fantasy trying to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I think I'm allowed to reference the philosophy of the guy who brought fantasy to the modern age, in a religious debate.

I thought bush brought fantasy into the modern age?

 

[darkendless]

Why does it matter? What difference to you does it make if they are removed from your society or if they are killed or tortured or hurt?

I dont believe in today's legal system at all... But I also do not believe in nor think the death penalty is required.

I'm an atheist mate and all anyone has is life and you who have not walked a mile in their shoes wish to judge and kill them on whatever evidence we can find after the fact...

IMHO too many innocent people have been imprisoned and killed.

I take an ardent stance against mindless torture and the death penalty. Understand I hold you in the highest regard but I would soon disagree with my own mother should she take a stance similar to your own... however since I can't let my opinion also be unknown.... [clicks submit]

Fair enough. What about hard labour? They used to enforce it in South Africa. Why not repay your debt to society by making society a better place?

 

[Sententia]

Fair enough. What about hard labour? They used to enforce it in South Africa. Why not repay your debt to society by making society a better place?

If they are to grow and learn from it and will become a better person... Maybe... But just to have them suffer? For no reason?

Bob, Fred and Mary grow up with Alcoholic Abusive father Joe. Joe films porno films of his kids and when they mess up he beats them with a 1" oak wooden dowel. He home schools his kids and has his way with all of them. Eventually the kids are older are realize they can tell and they can get out. Fred is the first to figure it out and proclaims to his dad after being badly beaten that he is going to tell...

His dad lock him in the basement for 2 months and feeds him table scraps under the door.

After those 2 months he lets him sleep in his bed for one night and gives him lobster for dinner and his favorite dessert... Chocolate Pudding with Vanilla Ice Cream.

His dad cleans up the basement and removes the locks. At 3 AM in the morning he Gets Fred out of bed and tosses him down 3 flights of stairs.

He calls 911 at 3:13 after he has checked the pulse and knows he's dead. Cops show up at 3:46. Great response time too!

Joe the dad has a solid alibi and the freshly waxxed stairs are to blame. 2 months later after being brutally raped Mary can't contain herself and kills her dad with a butcher knife.

You are never told Mary's story... you know that Mary is a murderer and that she was a convicted felon and killed her dad. You want her to work it off? Suffer more? Was she wrong to kill?

Understand I am AGAINST the death penalty... There are times though when people need to justly kill... In the old west of america you could walk for killing someone by telling the judge "He needed killing" and depending on who you were and how many people you done killed that might be an acceptable answer.

I argue frequently with a friend who says everyone gets one.... and by frequently I mean weekly.

I dont believe in making people suffer because we think we know what happened and because by making them suffer we know they wont do it again even though we will hold their crime against them for the rest of their lives... (Ever fill out a resume as a convicted felon?)

Put simply... Even if you have tape showing the crime and you think the crime warrants the death penalty...

What difference, to you or to society, does it make if we remove that person from you and your society's presence? Does it matter at all? They can never hurt you or your society again nor interact in any way... Why punish or kill them beyond that?

 

[Riverwolf]

I thought bush brought fantasy into the modern age?

No. He took advantage of meaningless fantasy that already existed, which has no correlation with high fantasy, which has nothing to do with evasionism.

 

[Sententia]

No. He took advantage of meaningless fantasy that already existed, which has no correlation with high fantasy, which has nothing to do with evasionism.

I'm harping on Bush these days... I am a big fantasy gamer. Or more accurately was. DnD, AD&D, Muds, MMORPGS, Gurps and etc... I loved LOTR but more so the Dragonlance series... Forgotten realms... Shannara.... The hobbit was awesome.

I dont understand though how Clinton was almost impeached and how Bush has never close to being impeached? Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with the process?

I don't want to hijack this thread though and feel I am diverging WAAAAAAY off topic.

 

[Riverwolf]

If they are to grow and learn from it and will become a better person... Maybe... But just to have them suffer? For no reason?

Bob, Fred and Mary grow up with Alcoholic Abusive father Joe. Joe films porno films of his kids and when they mess up he beats them with a 1" oak wooden dowel. He home schools his kids and has his way with all of them. Eventually the kids are older are realize they can tell and they can get out. Fred is the first to figure it out and proclaims to his dad after being badly beaten that he is going to tell...

His dad lock him in the basement for 2 months and feeds him table scraps under the door.

After those 2 months he lets him sleep in his bed for one night and gives him lobster for dinner and his favorite dessert... Chocolate Pudding with Vanilla Ice Cream.

His dad cleans up the basement and removes the locks. At 3 AM in the morning he Gets Fred out of bed and tosses him down 3 flights of stairs.

He calls 911 at 3:13 after he has checked the pulse and knows he's dead. Cops show up at 3:46. Great response time too!

Joe the dad has a solid alibi and the freshly waxxed stairs are to blame. 2 months later after being brutally raped Mary can't contain herself and kills her dad with a butcher knife.

You are never told Mary's story... you know that Mary is a murderer and that she was a convicted felon and killed her dad. You want her to work it off? Suffer more? Was she wrong to kill?

Understand I am AGAINST the death penalty... There are times though when people need to justly kill... In the old west of america you could walk for killing someone by telling the judge "He needed killing" and depending on who you were and how many people you done killed that might be an acceptable answer.

I argue frequently with a friend who says everyone gets one.... and by frequently I mean weekly.

I dont believe in making people suffer because we think we know what happened and because by making them suffer we know they wont do it again even though we will hold their crime against them for the rest of their lives... (Ever fill out a resume as a convicted felon?)

Put simply... Even if you have tape showing the crime and you think the crime warrants the death penalty...

What difference, to you or to society, does it make if we remove that person from you and your society's presence? Does it matter at all? They can never hurt you or your society again nor interact in any way... Why punish or kill them beyond that?

I almost fully agree with you... except that what Mary should have done was run away and tell the police, UNLESS she killed her father in an act of self-defense.

But you are right. I would hold murder against Mary if she didn't kill him in self-defense but in revenge, but I wouldn't impose the death penalty on her. Clearly she's not psychopathic so I wouldn't remove her from society for life. What I would do is put her to work(not hard labor unless she is strong enough to do it) while housing her in a semi-decent room so she can eat somewhat good food, have somewhat good shelter, and full privacy if she needs to use the toilet. I would also give her a counselor and therapist to help her cope with the horrible past and start over with a better life. I would not erase the blood from her hands, and it would stay on her record, what she did, and WHY she did it. When she's better(judged by a thorough examination over a period of a few years), I'd release her back into society a better woman in a better (personal) world.

 

[Sententia]

I almost fully agree with you... except that what Mary should have done was run away and tell the police, UNLESS she killed her father in an act of self-defense.

But you are right. I would hold murder against Mary if she didn't kill him in self-defense but in revenge, but I wouldn't impose the death penalty on her. Clearly she's not psychopathic so I wouldn't remove her from society for life. What I would do is put her to work(not hard labor unless she is strong enough to do it) while housing her in a semi-decent room so she can eat somewhat good food, have somewhat good shelter, and full privacy if she needs to use the toilet. I would also give her a counselor and therapist to help her cope with the horrible past and start over with a better life. I would not erase the blood from her hands, and it would stay on her record, what she did, and WHY she did it. When she's better(judged by a thorough examination over a period of a few years), I'd release her back into society a better woman in a better (personal) world.

Thus you would never address the problem and just try to punish, teach or educate the victim...

I dont hold this against you. I just think you have a very optimistic view of what america is really like on a daily basis for many people...

Maybe Mary was not educated enough or didnt know what her options were? Maybe she was still in shock in watching her father throw her brother down the stairs and then having to watch her father for weeks being comforted and patted on the back by fellow church members and even by the police...

You dont know but you want to punish mary for killing... As if Mary were you and you were Mary in Mary's situation...

It really is a hard concept to get through and to express... I could write a dozen stories and none would probably express where I am coming from....

 

[darkendless]

Thus you would never address the problem and just try to punish, teach or educate the victim...

I dont hold this against you. I just think you have a very optimistic view of what america is really like on a daily basis for many people...

Maybe Mary was not educated enough or didnt know what her options were? Maybe she was still in shock in watching her father throw her brother down the stairs and then having to watch her father for weeks being comforted and patted on the back by fellow church members and even by the police...

You dont know but you want to punish mary for killing... As if Mary were you and you were Mary in Mary's situation...

It really is a hard concept to get through and to express... I could write a dozen stories and none would probably express where I am coming from....

I dont necessarily think the death penalty is a fantastic idea, lets start thinning out the prisons. Serial killers and serials rapists on the other hand have no sympathy from me, perhaps we should let Iran deal with them? But repeated offenders who don't learn from their mistakes. I mean there is a serial sexual assualt offender against children over here, convicted 3 times. He isn't going to learn and he's a waste of resources rotting in a cell.

Why not make him do something for society and maybe repair city buildings, let him be active and do something for the community rather than wasting his life?

 

[Riverwolf]

Thus you would never address the problem and just try to punish, teach or educate the victim...

I dont hold this against you. I just think you have a very optimistic view of what america is really like on a daily basis for many people...

Maybe Mary was not educated enough or didnt know what her options were? Maybe she was still in shock in watching her father throw her brother down the stairs and then having to watch her father for weeks being comforted and patted on the back by fellow church members and even by the police...

You dont know but you want to punish mary for killing... As if Mary were you and you were Mary in Mary's situation...

It really is a hard concept to get through and to express... I could write a dozen stories and none would probably express where I am coming from....

I know. I'm an optimist. But I was speaking what I would do based on my current beliefs, not what America currently does, which I disagree with. You are right in that I completely forgot to address the real problem. So if I were the judge, I would certainly call you to help me out with the situation.

 

[Sententia]

I dont necessarily think the death penalty is a fantastic idea, lets start thinning out the prisons. Serial killers and serials rapists on the other hand have no sympathy from me, perhaps we should let Iran deal with them? But repeated offenders who don't learn from their mistakes. I mean there is a serial sexual assualt offender against children over here, convicted 3 times. He isn't going to learn and he's a waste of resources rotting in a cell.

Why not make him do something for society and maybe repair city buildings, let him be active and do something for the community rather than wasting his life?

You would seriously FIRST have to change society... Thin out prisons right... you are aware of the ongoing war on drugs and the legally government taxed drugs of alcohol and tabacco. Competition is not good for business right? And as a christian politician I cant support LSD and Weed right?

More to your point... Why death or why have Iran deal with them? My question is what difference to YOU or YOUR society does it make if we kill and torture them or if we just insure they can never interact with you and your society again? Is there some kind of joy in knowing their dead or knowing that they are suffering?

 

[Riverwolf]

Why not make him do something for society and maybe repair city buildings, let him be active and do something for the community rather than wasting his life?

That's the kind of work I was talking about.

 

[Sententia]

I know. I'm an optimist. But I was speaking what I would do based on my current beliefs, not what America currently does, which I disagree with. You are right in that I completely forgot to address the real problem. So if I were the judge, I would certainly call you to help me out with the situation.

LOL. Seriously I am only stating my opinion and am glad if it sways you. I don't agree with America's current legal system and have friends who are lawyers who also agree with me... does that mean anything?

Lets say you are the judge and you call me and I advise you... and then the jury convicts... It really doesnt matter...

Ultimately it goes to my previous argument... We can not know...

So to try and move this thread back to the topic at hand... We can not know Islam is the true religion... We cant know if its mormonism, catholism, baptism or whatever you believe in... What we do know is we cant have our personal beliefs dictate our lives and actions if the lives we choose to lead and the actions we choose to take are harmful to others. (IE... Torturing and burning witches, flying planes into buildings or actively seeking the Jihad or the rapture... right?)

We need to think more on humanistic point of view and I think for our planets sake we need to discover that earth is NOT the only planet inhabited by intelligent life. (and I use intelligent loosely in this context) I think humans will only get along when they realize the petty stuff they fight about is ultimately meaningless in light of the bigger picture.

 

[darkendless]

You would seriously FIRST have to change society... Thin out prisons right... you are aware of the ongoing war on drugs and the legally government taxed drugs of alcohol and tabacco. Competition is not good for business right? And as a christian politician I cant support LSD and Weed right?

More to your point... Why death or why have Iran deal with them? My question is what difference to YOU or YOUR society does it make if we kill and torture them or if we just insure they can never interact with you and your society again? Is there some kind of joy in knowing their dead or knowing that they are suffering?

The money it costs to keep them could help out understaffed and equipped hospitals as well as a host of things. If we have to maintain them they might as well work for society and do some good.

 

[.lava]

We can not know Islam is the true religion...

questioning is half of knowing and yes, we can know. if you have faith and love who created you, your questioning would be answered by God.


.

 

[Alizée]

Why would you reject Islam?

Because people might not believe Muhammad is a messenger of God.

 

[gnomon]

^_^ Which one of us is getting our history wrong? (probably me, because I honestly don't read enough on history)

Well, when it comes thousands of years of complex religious, social and cultural dynamics we all get it wrong to an extent.

But the turn of the thread to each party trying to out-villify each other's religious text reaches the point of absurdity. But now it seems the thread is about legal matters. Now it's just weird.

Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!
just trying to stay on topic, whatever that may be.

 

[Sententia]

The money it costs to keep them could help out understaffed and equipped hospitals as well as a host of things. If we have to maintain them they might as well work for society and do some good.

An amusing argument...

Do you know they were guilty? We have put to death people that were later found to be innocent and we dont put people to death lightly... We have freed people after Decades because they were acquitted and tried to make their years of imprisonment ok by giving them many dollars upon release... (Ie millions)

The money it costs... right... So in days not so far gone we used to take all our criminals and put em on a boat... and that boat went to Austraila where we dropped em off and not in chains... we just left them there and said make your new life here away from our country... was that nice to the people of austraila? well... probably not... Probably not the best solution but was it better than killing or torturing people? Guilty or not there is no point in killing in torturing a person unless it somehow helps that person...

Im not seeing that argument.

 

[Sententia]

questioning is half of knowing and yes, we can know. if you have faith and love who created you, your questioning would be answered by God.


.

You are assuming both that god is real and that god will and does answers our questions...

Do I have to explain assumption?

 

[.lava]

You are assuming both that god is real and that god will and does answers our questions...

Do I have to explain assumption?

i know that God answers questions. but of course you would not get an answer if you did not ask question in the first place. that's what i am saying. nope, i am not assuming but i can't share reality. just like yourself, i am all alone in it.


.

 

[Sententia]

i know that God answers questions. but of course you would not get an answer if you did not ask question in the first place. that's what i am saying. nope, i am not assuming but i can't share reality. just like yourself, i am all alone in it.
.

Are you assuming I have not fallen to my knees in tears with my life on the line and honestly asked god for answers?

Are you assuming I am a lifelong atheist?

Perhaps you should explore my previous posts...

I do *NOT* accept your argument from authority that you know god exists. I call you on it and you continue to proclaim that you, depite no way to ever prove anything you want me to believe, to be true that I should accept it... you just want to say it and thus make it so...

I want to say to you... I am not a fool and you should cease in your attempt to make me appear to be one by forcing me to accept the drivel your earnestly believe but can in no way prove.

You know Islam is the true religion and the god exists in the same way Storm is a non-theistic believer in god and in the same way Deepshadow knows Joe Smith to be the one true prophet and that mormonism is the one true religion.

You know your beliefs are true in the same manner that I know no one can know. So unless you have ESP or some other mental faculty that other humans dont posess you are just a cold blooded liar on a mission to mislead everyone you speak too in the sense that you are somehow better then most other people and in the sense that you somehow know better. And this kind of knowing takes no degree or rationality... ironically it relies solely on gullibility... Wow... You might win that prize mate.