What makes you think Islam is a false religion?

[Darkness]

Any explanation?

Two actually:

(1) Threatening those who do not believe in God with the Fire is sadistic.

(2) Condemning inter-faith marriage creates an "us versus them" mentality.

p.s I am not saying you are just seeking to attack Islam Darkness, but there are many who just ignore what doesn't suit their outlook.

I know only very basic information about the birth of Islam. All I brought up was a simple historical fact, giving a possible explanation as to Muhammed's motives.

p.s I am not saying you are just seeking to attack Islam Darkness, but there are many who just ignore what doesn't suit their outlook.

Thank you for not jumping to accusations, as too many people are guilty of. In this thread I am obviously assaulting the validity of Islam; however, I have already defended the right of Islamic belief when it was attacked by Christians.

 

[YmirGF]

I would know that from the Quran and from his speaches.

Fair enough, but do you appreciate the to non-believers this kind of answer is not particularly reasonable?

What better way!!! are you kidding me boy.

I find it disturbing that Muslims cannot even consider the possibility that what they are dealing with are fabrications -- fabrications specifically designed to keep the faithful tightly bound in their dogma.

You said it yourself, the people he was dealing were supertitious to the extreme, do you think that claiming prophethood was the best way to lure them...no way.

I can only assume that you have very little understanding of human nature. My guess is the people began flocking to him out of fear -- fear that what he was saying could be right. Remember, "Fear Allah!" and since one is enjoined to accept Allah as the one god and that Muhammed is his messanger, then by default, one must also fear Muhammed -- and with good reason.

Why would someone seeking control, start his mission by going against the stalwarts of the village?

Because he had his cites set much higher than the levels they offered... from the start.

On earth, I am saying 'know better about him'.

In principle, I have no problem with that. The thing is, the more I learn about Muhammed, the less impressed I become. (You have to understand how improbable the glowing Muslim accounts of his life come across to the non-believer, to understand how I feel about this.)

Your false bias assumption would be plausible if Mohamed's biography and speaches were focused on praising him in person and speaking about his 'empire'.

Um... ok. So what you are saying is that I have to believe in order for these things to sound reasonable? You are taking into account, I assume, that many people don't find these accounts particularly believable or compelling.

This is history...the only source of information available at this time were those 'devout Muslims'...but this does not mean that they were biased.

I think it is a unreasonable to think that that such accounts would not be written in such a way as to show him in the best possible light. To suggest otherwise is a more than a bit insulting.

Because if you believe in God, you must know he is FAIR enough to set the record straight.

But Right_Path, this does not account for "god's" utter silence over the last 150 years that has seen a number of new religions come onto the world stage. I haven't heard "god" speaking out against any of them, have you? If so -- when and where?

Wrong...Rejecting anything that is not God would be more appropriate.

Your answer is highly misleading, but completely understandable. It's not like I would expect you to insist differently. Again, try... for just a moment to look at the equation from a non-Muslim perspective. I CAN understand your side of the fence -- and everything DOES make sense from that perspective. The thing is, can you do the same?

 

[Right_Path]

First, I believe that Muhammad was a true prophet and that he received the revelations contained in the Holy Qur-an. But now--concerning today--I do not believe that the Holy Qur-an is being interpreted correctly by its adherents, too many centuries have passed where the original intent may have been lost.

Quran 15-9
''Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it''

This verse ensures Muslims that the Quran is untouchable.

The Quran is so clear and perfect, there are no contradictions in it.. so there is no reason to believe that something has changed...it is also parallel with the speaches of Mohamed PBUH.

It is my belief that Islam today suffers the same fate as Judaism and Christianity. Both Judaism and Christianity no longer represent the original religious structures and true interpretations of their respective scriptures. Too many centuries have passed for all three religions to warrant that all three are correct or that one of them is correct. It is my belief that another religion will come forth and supplant all three religions. Christianity came forth to supplant Judaism and Islam came to supplant Christianity and now another is likely to supplant Islam.?

33-40
Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.

5-3
...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion...

If Islam had no divisions or sects I might believe Islam was an original religion. But since Islam is divided as much as both Judaism and Christianity, then I might believe that another religion having a more pure form of doctrine and structure might be true.

Islam has no divisions or sects, unfortunately some Muslims do have.:sad:

If you want to learn about something go for the origin, that would be Mecca and Madina, the Prophet's land.

There, Islam is very clear...the book and teachings of Mohamed PBUH, and that's it.

Now Islam has no prophet today, so who with authority can we ask what Islam is supposed to look like as it did in Muhammad's day? Islam has no central authority just like Judaism and Christianity. Who among all these religious sects is the true observance or all incorrect?

Muslims need no prophet as long as they abide by the Quran and the teachings of Mohamed PBUH.

Mohamed said: ''I left at your disposal what if you sticked with, you will never go astray after me: Allah's book and my teachings (Sunna).''

 

[LuisDantas]

We know that the Quran is perfect according to Islam, and that Mohammed is inerrant by the same criteria.

But what does that actually mean, other than as a statement of faith?

What good is a faith that is perfect on paper if reality refuses to follow that perfection, as you say yourself:

Islam has no divisions or sects, unfortunately some Muslims do have.

You seem to value the abstract Islam more than the concrete, real Muslims. Perhaps that's not the best approach for religion.

 

[Right_Path]

Opuntia. Frubals and BINGO! You have hit the bullseye. You are right. A prophet is needed. And in the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community we believe that prophet did come. Please do go to An Overview.

Shame on you!

Is this your reply?!

Well, we Muslims believe that Jesus will come down to earth at the final stage of this life, you might be right if you meant with that 'a prophet is needed'.

But BINGO??? :areyoucra:areyoucra

See Opuntia, this is our disgrace as Muslims, people who call themselves Muslims and followers of Mohamed under the name of Shiite, Ahmadiyya and so on...this is what forced you (Opuntia) to avoid Islam.

Opuntia, to assess Islam...you have a perfect book (Quran) and you have the speaches of Mohamed PBUH...you need no 'Ahmadiyya Muslim Community'.

I don't mean you are not a Muslim Tariq, but please, if you want to belong to this religion...be a Muslim, not 'an ahmadi'!!

 

[Caladan]

people who call themselves Muslims and followers of Mohamed under the name of Shiite

So Shiites are not legitimate Muslims?

 

[Right_Path]

We know that the Quran is perfect according to Islam, and that Mohammed is inerrant by the same criteria.

But what does that actually mean, other than as a statement of faith?

What good is a faith that is perfect on paper if reality refuses to follow that perfection, as you say yourself:



You seem to value the abstract Islam more than the concrete, real Muslims. Perhaps that's not the best approach for religion.

No....I meant that, not because SOME Muslims have WRONGLY chose to belong to sects, then Islam is to be blamed.

 

[Caladan]

Right_Path,

I dont believe you have answered Danta's question. Shia is not a small sect by any standard. for example the Islam which is practiced in the very large nation of Iran is Shia, as opposed to many other Arab lands who practice Sunni Islam.

 

[Right_Path]

Two actually:

(1) Threatening those who do not believe in God with the Fire is sadistic.

Threateneting non-believers is part of any true message from God, this is ultimate fairness, so that when a non-believer is faced by fire in hereafter, he has no excuse.

We are talking about religion here sir...Good news for believers and a warning for non-believers are essential for the message.

25-56
And We have sent you (O Muhammad) only as a bearer of glad tidings and a warner

2) Condemning inter-faith marriage creates an "us versus them" mentality.

Inter-faith marriage is only prohibited if one of the spouses is a pagan...I don't see much of a problem in that...because a believer in God cannot marry a non-believer...a conflict would occur when a child is born.

However, a Muslim can marry a Christian for example.

 

[Right_Path]

So Shiites are not legitimate Muslims?

Anyone who believes in contrast with the book and the teachings of Mohamed is NOT a legitimate Muslim.

 

[LuisDantas]

So you claim that Shias do not guide their faith by the Quran and by Mohammed's teachings?

I am pretty sure that they claim otherwise. And considering how many there are, they are probably sincere as well.

Are they all wrong? Is there even some effective way of gauging how true to Islam someone is?

 

[Sententia]

Anyone who believes in contrast with the book and the teachings of Mohamed is NOT a legitimate Muslim.

Says who? Who makes that decision? Shi'a Muslims are by definition muslim. Right? :yes:

 

[Caladan]

In other words you alienate Iran, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Iraq and many many of the people of Yemen, Lebanon, Kuwait, Turkey, Pakistan etc. from the 'Ummah' because they are not Sunnis, or rather because they are not of your sect.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Quran 15-9
''Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it''

This verse ensures Muslims that the Quran is untouchable.

In fact it insures absolutely nothing of the kind and it's amazingly naive to suggest otherwise.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Threateneting non-believers is part of any true message from God, this is ultimate fairness, so that when a non-believer is faced by fire in hereafter, he has no excuse.

Just like when you die, alabamapoof will turn you in a pig if you don't believe in alabamapoof. Just so that you know and can change your thoughts about our beloved alabamapoof. Does this sound fair to you?

We are talking about religion here sir...Good news for believers and a warning for non-believers are essential for the message.

It would take me away from that religion more than it would draw me to it. I don't need a lifestyle that scares others. I also think I am not alone in that.

 

[Caladan]

We are talking about religion here sir...Good news for believers and a warning for non-believers are essential for the message.

are essential in the propaganda rather. this type of totalitarian propaganda might have worked on illiterate people centuries ago (or illiterate people in the 21 century), but it has no place among progressive people, it is insulting to direct it at modern human beings.

 

[Right_Path]

Fair enough, but do you appreciate the to non-believers this kind of answer is not particularly reasonable?

Yes, it is not reasonable, but thats why I am telling a non-believer, know more so that you might become a believer.

I find it disturbing that Muslims cannot even consider the possibility that what they are dealing with are fabrications .

Again YmirGF, you give no answer, and yet open another argument to evade the question.

Anyways, the Quran is what makes Muslims sure that they are not dealing with fabrications...the book has an answer to every question.

fabrications specifically designed to keep the faithful tightly bound in their dogma.

Why don't you call it strong faith, rather than 'bound in their dogma'.

I can only assume that you have very little understanding of human nature. My guess is the people began flocking to him out of fear -- fear that what he was saying could be right. Remember, "Fear Allah!" and since one is enjoined to accept Allah as the one god and that Muhammed is his messanger, then by default, one must also fear Muhammed -- and with good reason.

And I can only assume that have very little understanding to the nature of the people of the Arab Peninsula 1400 years ago...and very little knowledge about this particular phase regarding Arabs turining to Islam.

There is almost no incident where Mohamed persuaded someone to Islam using 'FEAR'.

I can tell you several stories of people who have turned to Islam...it was all about the Quran and its influence on people...they were convinced it was word of God without listening to verses of punishment.

Because he had his cites set much higher than the levels they offered... from the start.

From the start....What would be much higher than being the King of Arabia?, and then it would be much easier for him to achieve his...'empire'.

Accepting their 'levels' at the start, would have saved more than half the way towards the goal you claim.

In principle, I have no problem with that. The thing is, the more I learn about Muhammed, the less impressed I become. (You have to understand how improbable the glowing Muslim accounts of his life come across to the non-believer, to understand how I feel about this.)

I understand...just give yourself a chance HONESTLY.

Honesty is the key here sir.

Um... ok. So what you are saying is that I have to believe in order for these things to sound reasonable? You are taking into account, I assume, that many people don't find these accounts particularly believable or compelling..

Not 'sound' reasonable, but when you apply it on yourself, I mean if you followed Mohamed's teachings, you will be adamant you are going right...billions have done that...very few knew about him and then rejected him.

I think it is a unreasonable to think that that such accounts would not be written in such a way as to show him in the best possible light. To suggest otherwise is a more than a bit insulting.

Your view suggests that the info about every historic personality is doubtful.

But Right_Path, this does not account for "god's" utter silence over the last 150 years that has seen a number of new religions come onto the world stage. I haven't heard "god" speaking out against any of them, have you? If so -- when and where?

God is speaking against everyday everywhere via the QURAN...as I said, the Quran can answer every religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, it is not reasonable, but thats why I am telling a non-believer, know more so that you might become a believer.

I hope you don't count on it. The plain fact is that Islam is not and will never be for everyone. Not even for all theists.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes, it is not reasonable, but thats why I am telling a non-believer, know more so that you might become a believer.

[2.6] As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
[2.7] God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).


Sorry, but non-believers will always remain non-believers because God makes sure of it. We're all screwed.

 

[Right_Path]

So you claim that Shias do not guide their faith by the Quran and by Mohammed's teachings?

I am pretty sure that they claim otherwise. And considering how many there are, they are probably sincere as well.

Are they all wrong? Is there even some effective way of gauging how true to Islam someone is?

No...not all Shiites are completely wrong or do not guide their faith by the Quran and by Mohamed's teachings.

Shiites have different schools, some of them have minor defaults in their thoughts, this is bearable in Islam.

But some of them are considered out of the religion by Muslim scientists...for example those who believe that Gabriel was wrongly sent to Mohamed PBUH, cause he Ali should have been the messenger.