What must I believe to be saved?

[Spiderman]

It is ridiculous to think that people will be tortured forever or have eternal bliss depending on what they believe. Yet that is what so many religious people are preaching, I share the repugnance some atheists have for religious people that preach something so incredibly irrational and the epitome of unjust.

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

So, what must I believe to be saved? Please tell me.

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

Regarding the Scripture about the lake of fire, I think that's just a place of purification. Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."

I don't believe anyone will be punished forever (save for maybe that rare masochist that wants to be), certainly not because they didn't believe something.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

This would be strange as most religions do not believe in heaven, many do not believe in a positive afterlife, and some do not believe in any afterlife at all.

 

[Spiderman]

This would be strange as most religions do not believe in heaven, many do not believe in a positive afterlife, and some do not believe in any afterlife at all.

I'm not sure what percentage of religions believe in an afterlife, even if they don't call it Heaven.

But if everyone follows their conscience, I believe that will get them where they want to be on the other side.

 

[SomeRandom]

The afterlife beliefs varies considerably religion to religion. Heaven and hell as understood by Abrahamics aren't exactly universal concepts.

 

[Spiderman]

The afterlife beliefs varies considerably religion to religion. Heaven and hell as understood by Abrahamics aren't exactly universal concepts.

Heaven may be an EXTREMELY large place. There may be a different heaven for different people. Some people may find a garden full of naked harp players to be hell.

I believe Ghandi is in Heaven but a different heaven than where I'm going perhaps.

I think each religion will be a path to that person's heaven.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's interesting how a made up crisis creates such a stir.

 

[Deeje]

It is ridiculous to think that people will be tortured forever or have eternal bliss depending on what they believe. Yet that is what so many religious people are preaching, I share the repugnance some atheists have for religious people that preach something so incredibly irrational and the epitome of unjust.

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

So, what must I believe to be saved? Please tell me.

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

Regarding the Scripture about the lake of fire, I think that's just a place of purification. Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."

I don't believe anyone will be punished forever (save for maybe that rare masochist that wants to be), certainly not because they didn't believe something.

PAD, I am seeing so many posts with you pleading for direction. I am sorry that you are so lost, but your definition of Christianity is part of the problem IMO. Christendom, and particularly the mother church (Roman Catholicism) is not about the teachings of Jesus Christ.....they never were. They are the 'weeds' that Jesus foretold as part of a great apostasy that was to overtake Christianity, just as it did Judaism. The presence of the apostles held it back until the last book of the Bible was written...then after they passed away, everything fell apart. The leaders of the churches are way more like the Pharisees than they are like Jesus who welcomed the troubled ones and offered them refreshment, not threats of eternal conscious punishment.

Heaven is promised only to a chosen few.....those who will rule with Christ in his kingdom (Revelation 20:6).....but their subjects will live on earth as God intended at the beginning. If you were given the option of living forever in paradise conditions on earth with all of creation in perfect balance and harmony with fellow humans who love each other, rather than hate....would you reject it?

That is why Jesus taught us to pray for that Kingdom to "come"....not that we will go to the kingdom, but that it will "come" to us....so that God's will can be done "on earth as it is in heaven".

God's command in Revelation 18:4-8 concerning "Babylon the great", is to....
“Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong."

Unless we get out of that wicked "city" (false religion) we will share with her in her sins and receive part of her plagues.

When you look at the leaders of Roman Catholicism, they live in shameless luxury, whilst so many of their flocks are suffering hardships. She teaches God-dishonoring doctrines like hellfire.....something Jesus never did. There is only life and death....not heaven or hell. And she has always supported the bloodshed that has taken place on the earth. Her "friendship with the world" has made her an "adulteress" in God's eyes. (James 4:4) Babylon the great is depicted as a harlot.

If you feel like a square peg in a round hole, perhaps you need to find a square hole to call home. It isn't a matter of finding what pleases you...try asking God to help you find ways to please him. Only then will you be truly happy......

Acts 20:35
"I have shown you in all things that by working hard in this way, you must assist those who are weak and must keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus, when he himself said: ‘There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.’”

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

I'm not sure what percentage of religions believe in an afterlife, even if they don't call it Heaven.

But if everyone follows their conscience, I believe that will get them where they want to be on the other side.

So are you proposing that every afterlife ever conceived exists?

If so that sounds like some very wishful thinking.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Heaven may be an EXTREMELY large place. There may be a different heaven for different people. Some people may find a garden full of naked harp players to be hell.

I believe Ghandi is in Heaven but a different heaven than where I'm going perhaps.

I think each religion will be a path to that person's heaven.

That sounds like a form of universalism.

 

[Spiderman]

So are you proposing that every afterlife ever conceived exists?

If so that sounds like some very wishful thinking.

Not ever conceived but what is most appropriate for each individual

 

[SomeRandom]

Heaven may be an EXTREMELY large place. There may be a different heaven for different people. Some people may find a garden full of naked harp players to be hell.

I believe Ghandi is in Heaven but a different heaven than where I'm going perhaps.

I think each religion will be a path to that person's heaven.

Like I said not a universal concept. See a lot of the Easterners think heaven is either a temporary reward for good deeds or ultimately becoming one with the creator. Not a place but a state of being I guess. And Easterners generally do share your "religions are but rivers going towards the same ocean" thoughts. Generally ish

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well...

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

Punishment is based on deeds not because you don't believe. The reason "unbelievers" are quote on quote punished is not because of their lack of faith. Everyone, according to the bible, is growing in christ. It's because they are dead in sin (actions of transgression against god) and these actions not disbelief that sends one to hell and another to heaven.

For example:

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ~Revelations 20:13-14​

A lot of Christians say they are not saved by their deeds but by their faith in god. Scripture says that they are saved because of their deeds which only be righteous deeds if they have faith in god. Any sin separates them from god and that is where the hell comes in. Not from not believing but from being in a sinful state without god's grace.

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them Ezekiel 18:20​

Hmm. This proves there isn't inherited sin... but, that aside, lol, it's all about actions. Romans 2:6 "He will judge everyone according to what they have done." Not what they believe. Jesus said that a person can have faith as a mustard seed but when one sins, that faith goes and that's where the "hell" comes in.

On the other hand,

Hebrews 5:12-13

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.​

Every Christians is growing in Christ. If you choose to believe in christ, and you know everyone sins, how would a person not be guilty of their sins if you believe it were a transgression against god?

In scripture, nonbeliever is equated to someone who is lost in sin/actions of transgression not "not believing god exists."

If you want to follow Christ and be saved read the bible, follow biblical teachings, and uum understand (in my experience) salvation is a journey not something you gain immediately all because you have faith.

 

[Spiderman]

Well...



Punishment is based on deeds not because you don't believe. The reason "unbelievers" are quote on quote punished is not because of their lack of faith. Everyone, according to the bible, is growing in christ. It's because they are dead in sin (actions of transgression against god) and these actions not disbelief that sends one to hell and another to heaven.

For example:

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ~Revelations 20:13-14​

A lot of Christians say they are not saved by their deeds but by their faith in god. Scripture says that they are saved because of their deeds which only be righteous deeds if they have faith in god. Any sin separates them from god and that is where the hell comes in. Not from not believing but from being in a sinful state without god's grace.

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them Ezekiel 18:20​

Hmm. This proves there isn't inherited sin... but, that aside, lol, it's all about actions. Romans 2:6 "He will judge everyone according to what they have done." Not what they believe. Jesus said that a person can have faith as a mustard seed but when one sins, that faith goes and that's where the "hell" comes in.

On the other hand,

Hebrews 5:12-13

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.​

Every Christians is growing in Christ. If you choose to believe in christ, and you know everyone sins, how would a person not be guilty of their sins if you believe it were a transgression against god?

In scripture, nonbeliever is equated to someone who is lost in sin/actions of transgression not "not believing god exists."

If you want to follow Christ and be saved read the bible, follow biblical teachings, and uum understand (in my experience) salvation is a journey not something you gain immediately all because you have faith.

Are you sure you aren't a Christian?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Well...



Punishment is based on deeds not because you don't believe. The reason "unbelievers" are quote on quote punished is not because of their lack of faith. Everyone, according to the bible, is growing in christ. It's because they are dead in sin (actions of transgression against god) and these actions not disbelief that sends one to hell and another to heaven.

For example:

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ~Revelations 20:13-14​

A lot of Christians say they are not saved by their deeds but by their faith in god. Scripture says that they are saved because of their deeds which only be righteous deeds if they have faith in god. Any sin separates them from god and that is where the hell comes in. Not from not believing but from being in a sinful state without god's grace.

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them Ezekiel 18:20​

Hmm. This proves there isn't inherited sin... but, that aside, lol, it's all about actions. Romans 2:6 "He will judge everyone according to what they have done." Not what they believe. Jesus said that a person can have faith as a mustard seed but when one sins, that faith goes and that's where the "hell" comes in.

On the other hand,

Hebrews 5:12-13

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.​

Every Christians is growing in Christ. If you choose to believe in christ, and you know everyone sins, how would a person not be guilty of their sins if you believe it were a transgression against god?

In scripture, nonbeliever is equated to someone who is lost in sin/actions of transgression not "not believing god exists."

If you want to follow Christ and be saved read the bible, follow biblical teachings, and uum understand (in my experience) salvation is a journey not something you gain immediately all because you have faith.

But isn't not believing in God/Jesus a sin you need to be saved from? Therefore, even if you lived your life according to the bible, if you still did not believe God and Jesus were real, then wouldn't you still be sinning anyway and be condemned to hell anyway?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you sure you aren't a Christian?

LOLOL I was just thinking that to myself after re-reading my post. I know many people know more about the bible than I do, but I don't talk to many people who have much insight beyond what they quote.

Thank you for the compliment I'm a heavy thinker.

 

[Spiderman]

LOLOL I was just thinking that to myself after re-reading my post. I know many people know more about the bible than I do, but I don't talk to many people who have much insight beyond what they quote.

Thank you for the compliment I'm a heavy thinker.

Listen to your heart. God and your ancestors speak to your heart not the ears. They love you tremendously!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But isn't not believing in God/Jesus a sin you need to be saved from? Therefore, even if you lived your life according to the bible, if you still did not believe God and Jesus were real, then wouldn't you still be sinning anyway and be condemned to hell anyway?

No, because a sin is an action/a transgression against god. In the bible, people were punished for their disobedience not for their lack of belief. Some of the disciples were not quite at the same insight level as christ even so much for christ to call them fools. However, he doesn't say they aren't disciples for what they don't know but whether they follow his father or not.

When you don't believe, according to the bible, it means you are in a state of sin not because you just don't believe in god. Logically, you'd think if you want to be saved, you have to put in the effort to grab the hand of the person who saves you. Biblically, god does it for you. (You don't own your own salvation). The best you can do is take the offer and live like christ with good deeds that confirms your relationship with christ or just go off faith and grace and do nothing and hope that faith will get you into heaven.

But with unbelievers, it's not about "not believing god exists" it's being in the state of sin because one doesn't follow christ's father. It's a default for not following god.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

No, because a sin is an action/a transgression against god. In the bible, people were punished for their disobedience not for their lack of belief. Some of the disciples were not quite at the same insight level as christ even so much for christ to call them fools. However, he doesn't say they aren't disciples for what they don't know but whether they follow his father or not.

When you don't believe, according to the bible, it means you are in a state of sin not because you just don't believe in god. Logically, you'd think if you want to be saved, you have to put in the effort to grab the hand of the person who saves you. Biblically, god does it for you. (You don't own your own salvation). The best you can do is take the offer and live like christ with good deeds that confirms your relationship with christ or just go off faith and grace and do nothing and hope that faith will get you into heaven.

But with unbelievers, it's not about "not believing god exists" it's being in the state of sin because one doesn't follow christ's father. It's a default for not following god.

So, if someone is an agnostic atheist and he/she follows the bible and lives the way God wants him/her to live, then he/she should all of a sudden somehow magically believe in God? I know plenty of agnostic atheists who have did so and they still could not believe even after many years of searching for God. Therefore, I think this whole notion that unbelief is due to sin is a flawed notion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So, if someone is an agnostic atheist and he/she follows the bible and lives the way God wants him/her to live, then he/she should all of a sudden somehow magically believe in God? I know plenty of agnostic atheists who have did so and they still could not believe even after many years of searching for God. Therefore, I think this whole notion that unbelief is due to sin is a flawed notion.

Belief isn't separate from actions. So if that agnostic atheist does what the bible wants him to do, the point of the actions is to build trust and a relationship with god not just believe in him.

If the agnostic atheist don't form trust and devote themselves to developing their growth in christ, then of course they won't get anywhere. Anyone can do actions but jesus taught that actions and faith/trust go hand in hand. Salvation is dependent on both.

But by itself, faith does nothing but says you trust god without acting on that trust. Actions alone does nothing because why are you doing something for someone you don't even believe in. It has to be both.

Actions are highly emphasized in scripture and deeds are judged not faith. So that's the difference.

 

[Kemosloby]

I think at least one way of looking at the text is metaphorically. Where it says there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth for instance. Hell is seeing what you could have had if you had believed and had faith. The hell described is eternal shame and regret upon seeing you have no reward in heaven.