What Must You Know to be Enlightened?

[Willamena]

If this is not sufficient to provide context, just read 'absolute' before 'state' and the context is unambiguous and as it was meant to be conveyed, i.e. "It is my understanding that enlightenment is an absolute state of non-duality."

If you've read any of my other posts butting heads with people about the term "absolute" you'd know this is not an improvement.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If you've read any of my other posts butting heads with people about the term "absolute" you'd know this is not an improvement.

No, but it does seem absolutely clear that butting heads implies duality. BTW, non-conceptualized enlightenment would remain unaffected by head butting,..but then it would also be unmoved by kissing.

Perhaps it is best to put the concept of 'enlightenment' in the same category as the Tao that is beyond words, i.e. The concept of enlightenment is not enlightenment beyond conceptualization.

 

[Valjean]

I agree with ben d. Enlightenment is a realization of non-duality; a unity with the screen upon which the universe is projected. It is not "knowledge," it's more like a seizure.

Enlightenment's primarily an Eastern concept, foreign to the Abrahamic traditions. When a Christian or Muslim speaks of enlightenment s/he's talking about something entirely different from the "standard" eastern, or the western, Huxleyan conception.
Of course, considering it in the context of a psychosis or a temporal lobe status epilepticus, it's bound to pop up periodically in all populations, regardless of religious tradition, as Huxley pointed out. Christians tasting it have had to take great care to couch their descriptions in proper eccliastical language to avoid charges of heresy.

 

[Willamena]

No, but it does seem absolutely clear that butting heads implies duality. BTW, non-conceptualized enlightenment would remain unaffected by head butting,..but then it would also be unmoved by kissing.

Too, it would remain unaffected of remaining.

Perhaps it is best to put the concept of 'enlightenment' in the same category as the Tao that is beyond words, i.e. The concept of enlightenment is not enlightenment beyond conceptualization.

Good enough.

 

[MoonWater]

I agree with ben d. Enlightenment is a realization of non-duality; a unity with the screen upon which the universe is projected. It is not "knowledge," it's more like a seizure.

Enlightenment's primarily an Eastern concept, foreign to the Abrahamic traditions. When a Christian or Muslim speaks of enlightenment s/he's talking about something entirely different from the "standard" eastern, or the western, Huxleyan conception.
Of course, considering it in the context of a psychosis or a temporal lobe status epilepticus, it's bound to pop up periodically in all populations, regardless of religious tradition, as Huxley pointed out. Christians tasting it have had to take great care to couch their descriptions in proper eccliastical language to avoid charges of heresy.

But doesn't a non-duality also imply a duality, as you would have duality and non-duality?

 

[doppelganger]

What, if anything, must you know to be enlightened?

That I'm not.

 

[doppelganger]

But doesn't a non-duality also imply a duality, as you would have duality and non-duality?

Of course. At most it is a recognition or realization of primal chaos onto which ordered form is projected. But since the conscious mind can only experience (and express that experience) through forms, that recognition of primal chaos behind ordered form is never more than a fleeting glimpse, like a movement in the shadows you catch out of the corner of the eye, but that disappears when you turn your head to look at it.

When thought becomes fixed upon it, Primal Chaos/Tao/Brahman (and sometimes even "God") ceases to be, precisely because it has become.

 

[Japaholic]

What, if anything, must you know to be enlightened? Does enlightenment in anyway depend on knowledge?

In my humble opinion you must know yourself. Once you recognise your place in the universe, its effect of you and your effect on it then your pretty much there. Some say thats the next step in human evolution and the human race will split and become those who are enlightened and those who are not.

For me this raised the following question.

Would two enlightened parents raise an enlightened child or would that child need to undergo its own awakening in order to see the light?

(Written in all seriousness, but with a wry smile!)

 

[MoonWater]

Of course. At most it is a recognition or realization of primal chaos onto which ordered form is projected. But since the conscious mind can only experience (and express that experience) through forms, that recognition of primal chaos behind ordered form is never more than a fleeting glimpse, like a movement in the shadows you catch out of the corner of the eye, but that disappears when you turn your head to look at it.

When thought becomes fixed upon it, Primal Chaos/Tao/Brahman (and sometimes even "God") ceases to be, precisely because it has become.

Okay, I thought the point was to reach a "state" of "non-duality". I see I misunderstood.

 

[doppelganger]

Okay, I thought the point was to reach a "state" of "non-duality".

Sure. And then there'd be no you to be enlightened. It sounds nice, but grammatically and logically it doesn't make any sense to strive for "non-duality."

I think Al Stewart said it best in "Time Passages":

Hear the echoes
and feel yourself starting to turn
Don't know why you should think
that there's something to learn
It's just a game that you play

 

[Valjean]

But doesn't a non-duality also imply a duality, as you would have duality and non-duality?

Duality is a subjective reality. Non duality is objective, quantum Reality.

 

[Valjean]

In my humble opinion you must know yourself. Once you recognise your place in the universe, its effect of you and your effect on it then your pretty much there. Some say thats the next step in human evolution and the human race will split and become those who are enlightened and those who are not.

Enlightenment goes beyond that. It transcends effect. It is a realization that you are the Universe.
A race of 11- dimensional, vs 3 dimensional humans?! How would that happen?

For me this raised the following question.
Would two enlightened parents raise an enlightened child or would that child need to undergo its own awakening in order to see the light?

(Written in all seriousness, but with a wry smile!)

Would two parents with temporal-lobe epilepsy produce a child with same? Hmmm. An interesting question.

 

[Willamena]

But doesn't a non-duality also imply a duality, as you would have duality and non-duality?

I do not follow you, my love,
you do not follow me.
I am the distance you put between
the moments that we will be.
You know who I am,
you've stared at the sun;
well I am the one who loves
changing from nothing to one.

Leonard Cohen, Nothing to One

 

[Jeremiah]

What, if anything, must you know to be enlightened? Does enlightenment in anyway depend on knowledge?

To be known as enlightened you must know how to kiss the butt of the public.

 

[Lucius7]

What, if anything, must you know to be enlightened? Does enlightenment in anyway depend on knowledge?

Enlightenment in no was depends on knowledge alone. KNowledge holds no key mto power. It is impotent. Only application of knowledge excersises power. Still, application of knowledge grants no enlightenment. Understanding is one preliminary. Obedience preceeds understanding, meaning that prior to understanding we must must learn to properly apply knowledge of the Laws. Through understanding one gains the capacity for wisdom, or the stnpoint of one who, having already understood through application, can now correctly apply his understanding for benefit. Enlightenment is a process which is not and cannot be completed fully within this lifetime. Knowledge of the Truth=Enlightenment. Knowledge of the truth = studying the Law and its applications and learning to master them in daily life as a conscious part of daily living.

 

[Japaholic]

Enlightenment goes beyond that. It transcends effect. It is a realization that you are the Universe. A race of 11- dimensional, vs 3 dimensional humans?! How would that happen?

Does thou taketh the pith? I thinketh thou doest!

Would two parents with temporal-lobe epilepsy produce a child with same? Hmmm. An interesting question.

Thats not very nice is it? Very "enlightened" of you I must say.

 

[Jeremiah]

What, if anything, must you know to be enlightened? Does enlightenment in anyway depend on knowledge?

A more serious note.

In my mind being enlightened means that you are no longer just trying to be a good person but you are a good person. Good in the sense that a good thing hits it's intended target with the best possible accuracy. Aim being sighted off the structure of our beings.

So a person would need to know where to aim and then they would have to hit the target. Requiring both understanding and action.

 

[Willamena]

Duality is a subjective reality. Non duality is objective, quantum Reality.

Objective quantum reality is only objective and quantum when viewed subjectively.

 

[Willamena]

They'll never, they'll never ever each the moon;
At least not the one that we're after
It's floating out there on the open sea, boys
And it carries no survivors
But lets leave these lovers wondering
Why they cannot have each other
And let's sing another song, boys;
this one has grown old and bitter.

Leonard Cohen, Sing Another Song, Boys

 

[blueman]

Wisdom comes through God. From a spiritual and life perspective, the closer you draw to a relationship with God, the more wisdom God will bestow upon you and in turn, you're more enlightened in the most important areas of your life.