What paradigm will replace Christianity?

[Father Heathen]

There are some who are saying that Christianity as a paradigm of the western world is beginning to crumble especially among educated circles. Given it's troubled history maybe it needs to die and be reborn anew, perhaps a new paradigm is needed for the 21st century...but would that be? What could replace it? A renewed version of Christianity or some version of it, or a new spirituality perhaps? Secularism? materialism? atheism or agnosticism? What do you see becoming the new paradigm of the western world as the old one starts to decay in the 21st century that would fulfill peoples inner needs?

Secular humanism.

 

[InChrist]

OK, InChrist?

The post you finally responded with has all of 2 Bible verses in it, neither one of which does anything to confirm anything but a very small fraction of the assertions in your original claim, all the links you posted and the excerpts thereof are examples of Christians telling us what they think, not showing us what the Bible actually says.

If this is the best you could do, the only reasonable (and I would say obvious) conclusion is that there actually is no Biblical basis for your claim.

If there were, it should have been the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate that from the Bible itself.

[FONT=&quot]The scriptures deals with important themes line upon line and precept upon precept. Information on a given subject is not found in any one verse, chapter, or book. I am sure God designed the scriptures this way to draw those who seek understanding closer in relationship to Him for wisdom as they consider the whole council of His Word. I am not sure what you expect, but as I said I was trying to narrow my post down. I did reference more than two scriptures., but I cannot post all the related scriptures…you will have to prayerfully read the Bible for yourself. The links were given to demonstrate the reality of apostasy within Christianity and the world at large.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]False worship or religion started with the five “I wills” of Lucifer/Satan attempting to elevate himself above God. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How you are fallen from heaven,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] O Lucifer son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: [/FONT] ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. Isaiah 14:12-14

[FONT=&quot]Satan then deceived Eve with the same lie and Adam willfully followed and disobeyed God’s clear instruction (Gen. 2:17, Gen. 3:4-6) Satan’s goal is to be worshipped in place of his Creator. In the meantime he has throughout human history encouraged an endless variety of false religions which have Self as the focus rather than the true Creator God. The pages of the OT are filled with examples of idolatry and false religious practices. The scriptures indicate this will culminate at the end of the age in a worldwide government connected with a one world false religion and finally worship of the antichrist spoken about in the books of Daniel, Revelation and elsewhere.[/FONT]

 

[bigbadgirl]

Christianity has been nearly extinct for 1600 years. Paulism replaced it years ago. It would be nice to see people who call themselves "Christians" actually follow the teachings of Jesus instead of Paul, for a change.

 

[Quagmire]

[FONT=&quot]The scriptures deals with important themes line upon line and precept upon precept. Information on a given subject is not found in any one verse, chapter, or book.

Which is why I asked you for verses[plural].

I am sure God designed the scriptures this way to draw those who seek understanding closer in relationship to Him for wisdom as they consider the whole council of His Word.

Even if all that's so you're still not giving us any reason at all to believe that there's anything in the Bible that adds up to your original claims.

I am not sure what you expect,

Actually, you're giving me exactly what I expected, although I asked for something completely different:

What particular verses are you basing all this on?

I'm only asking for a small selection of verses that give some indication that there's any basis at all to your claim that:

According to the scriptures the next paradigm will be a one-world religion which will incorporate and promote Satan's initial lie to humanity "you will be as God". This religion will be all inclusive and appealing to occultists, mystical and pseudo-christians, eastern religion adherents, and even humanists and atheists because it will be all about Self and reaching one's full potential, godhood, enlightenment, or next evolutionary step.

At the beginning of this debate, I just figured you were takig some scripture and reading a few (some pretty far-fetched things) into it. Now I think you're either just making it all up out of thin air or repeating somethings you heard from someone else who did.

but as I said I was trying to narrow my post down.

Why? And is the hodge-podge of unrelated quotes and links you posted in response an example of narrowing things down? Looks more like an attempt to bury the question under a mountain of unsolicited and unrelated opinions.

I did reference more than two scriptures.

You only posted 2, and neither of them addressed the bulk of your claims.

, but I cannot post all the related scriptures…

Not asking for all. Some would be helpful.

you will have to prayerfully read the Bible for yourself.

Why? I'm still trying to determine if you have?

The links were given to demonstrate the reality of apostasy within Christianity and the world at large.[/FONT]

There were a hell of a lot of other details in your claim than apostasy. And they were specific details. You can't make specific, precise claims and verify them with vague, marginally related, extra-Biblical lectures.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]False worship or religion started with the five “I wills” of Lucifer/Satan attempting to elevate himself above God. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How you are fallen from heaven,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] O Lucifer son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: [/FONT] ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. Isaiah 14:12-14

[FONT=&quot]Satan then deceived Eve with the same lie and Adam willfully followed and disobeyed God’s clear instruction (Gen. 2:17, Gen. 3:4-6) Satan’s goal is to be worshipped in place of his Creator. In the meantime he has throughout human history encouraged an endless variety of false religions which have Self as the focus rather than the true Creator God.

Name one. Or I should say name one that predates the pseudo-spiritual self-help pop religion that emerged in the late 70s.

The pages of the OT are filled with examples of idolatry and false religious practices.

Yes. It also mentions trees, and birds, and battles, and quite a lot of other things. What's your point?

The scriptures indicate this will culminate at the end of the age in a worldwide government connected with a one world false religion and finally worship of the antichrist spoken about in the books of Daniel, Revelation and elsewhere.[/FONT]

And that's what you're basing all of this on?

According to the scriptures the next paradigm will be a one-world religion which will incorporate and promote Satan's initial lie to humanity "you will be as God". This religion will be all inclusive and appealing to occultists, mystical and pseudo-christians, eastern religion adherents, and even humanists and atheists because it will be all about Self and reaching one's full potential, godhood, enlightenment, or next evolutionary step.

 

[InChrist]

Which is why I asked you for verses[plural].

[FONT=&quot]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess. 2:3-4[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]And Jesus answered and said to them: [FONT=&quot]“Take heed that no one deceives you.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. Matthew 24:4[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. Matthew 24:11[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.[FONT=&quot] 25 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]See, I have told you beforehand. Matthew 24:24-25[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons 1Tim. 4:1[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 2 Tim. 4:3-4[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.2 John 1:7[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king.” 1 Sam. 15:23[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. - Daniel 7:23-25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
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Then stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saint
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666. Rev. 13:1-18

Name one. Or I should say name one that predates the pseudo-spiritual self-help pop religion that emerged in the late 70s.

[FONT=&quot]All works based religious systems which include anything where someone thinks they can appease whatever God they believe in,(even if that god is themselves ) or work their way to a higher level of spirituality or being.
[/FONT]

 

[fishy]

And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

It'll be a cold day in hell by the time this ever happens.:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

 

[Quagmire]

So you're taking all this...:

[FONT=&quot]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess. 2:3-4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And Jesus answered and said to them: [FONT=&quot]“Take heed that no one deceives you.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. Matthew 24:4[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. Matthew 24:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.[FONT=&quot] 25 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]See, I have told you beforehand. Matthew 24:24-25[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons 1Tim. 4:1[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 2 Tim. 4:3-4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.2 John 1:7[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king.” 1 Sam. 15:23[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. - Daniel 7:23-25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Then stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saint
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666. Rev. 13:1-18

[FONT=&quot]All works based religious systems which include anything where someone thinks they can appease whatever God they believe in,(even if that god is themselves ) or work their way to a higher level of spirituality or being.
[/FONT]

And coming up with this...?:

According to the scriptures the next paradigm will be a one-world religion which will incorporate and promote Satan's initial lie to humanity "you will be as God". This religion will be all inclusive and appealing to occultists, mystical and pseudo-christians, eastern religion adherents, and even humanists and atheists because it will be all about Self and reaching one's full potential, godhood, enlightenment, or next evolutionary step.

First off, show me anywhere in all that where it says there's going to be a religion that promotes self-deification.

Secondly, there isn't one word in any of that suggesting that there's going to emerge a "one-world religion" that will be especially attractive to any of the groups you name above other than "pseudo-Christians".

All you're doing here is taking a bunch of warnings against "false" religions and beliefs and applying them to existing thought systems that you, yourself, have judged false, based on a criteria that doesn't even apply to these systems, and then claiming that the Bible specifically identifies these systems.

In other words, you're taking your own completely extra-Biblical prediction, based obviously on your own prejudices, and posting it here prefaced with the deceptive claim of "According to the scriptures".

Did you happen to notice that some of the verses you posted are warnings against doing what you just did?

 

[InChrist]

So you're taking all this...:


And coming up with this...?:



First off, show me anywhere in all that where it says there's going to be a religion that promotes self-deification.

Secondly, there isn't one word in any of that suggesting that there's going to emerge a "one-world religion" that will be especially attractive to any of the groups you name above other than "pseudo-Christians".

All you're doing here is taking a bunch of warnings against "false" religions and beliefs and applying them to existing thought systems that you, yourself, have judged false, based on a criteria that doesn't even apply to these systems, and then claiming that the Bible specifically identifies these systems.

In other words, you're taking your own completely extra-Biblical prediction, based obviously on your own prejudices, and posting it here prefaced with the deceptive claim of "According to the scriptures".

Did you happen to notice that some of the verses you posted are warnings against doing what you just did?

[FONT=&quot]I said “according to the scriptures” because according to the scriptures there is one way, one truth, and one life which the Creator God has in place and that is through the Savior Jesus Christ (John 14:6). All other religions/spiritual practices which are different from God’s way, including Christianity when practiced as merely routine, ritual, or religion, are humans saying to God we will do things our way not your way. This is exactly the same attitude as Satan attempting to exalt his will over God’s will. It is putting Self above God, this is Self-deification. It is the common denominator of all religions, including humanism, outside of Christ and this is the coming religious/spiritual system which will encompass all of them and is already in the process of emerging. If you cannot see this occurring in the world and in the professing Christian church as it continues to accept and promote more of this same mindset which the Bible calls apostasy then you are not paying attention. Below are two non-Christian links which demonstrate the reality of this taking place in the world now:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Global Spirit - The World Commission on Global Consciousness & Spirituality


Global Spirituality

 

[fishy]

And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

It'll be a cold day in hell by the time this ever happens.:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

[FONT="]I said “according to the scriptures” because according to the scriptures there is one way, one truth, and one life which the Creator God has in place and that is through the Savior Jesus Christ (John 14:6). All other religions/spiritual practices which are different from God’s way, including Christianity when practiced as merely routine, ritual, or religion, are humans saying to God we will do things our way not your way. This is exactly the same attitude as Satan attempting to exalt his will over God’s will. It is putting Self above God, this is Self-deification. It is the common denominator of all religions, including humanism, outside of Christ and this is the coming religious/spiritual system which will encompass all of them and is already in the process of emerging. If you cannot see this occurring in the world and in the professing Christian church as it continues to accept and promote more of this same mindset which the Bible calls apostasy then you are not paying attention. Below are two links non-Christian links which demonstrate the reality of this taking place in the world now:[/FONT]

[FONT="]

You can't even find two people who profess the same religion who agree on the interpretation of a passage from their scripture
[/FONT]

 

[Quagmire]

[FONT=&quot]I said “according to the scriptures”

What you should have said was "According to my absolutely baseless and indefensible interpretation of the scriptures...."

because according to the scriptures there is one way, one truth, and one life which the Creator God has in place and that is through the Savior Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

None of which adds up to or in any way confirms any of the claims you're making.

All other religions/spiritual practices which are different from God’s way, including Christianity when practiced as merely routine, ritual, or religion, are humans saying to God we will do things our way not your way.

Does that include taking the Bible and re-writing it to suit your own purposes?

This is exactly the same attitude as Satan attempting to exalt his will over God’s will.

IMO, when someone claims to believe that the Bible is the word of God, and then that same person turns around and starts adding things to it to suit their own purposes, that person is trying to exalt their own will over God's.

It is putting Self above God,

Yes, that's exactly what that is.

this is Self-deification.

Sure is.

It is the common denominator of all religions, including humanism,

Looks to me like the only "common denominator of all those religions" is that they're being equally maligned by someone who has no idea at all what they're actually about.

outside of Christ and this is the coming religious/spiritual system

No, it's already here, and it always has been.

which will encompass all of them and is already in the process of emerging. If you cannot see this occurring in the world and in the professing Christian church as it continues to accept and promote more of this same mindset which the Bible calls apostasy

OK, first off, the word "Apostasy" isn't even in any respected version of the Bible. The few fringe versions that it does appear in actually have to add entire sentences in order to make it's presence in the verse even appear to make any sense. What does that tell you?

Secondly, the word doesn't mean what you're claiming it means.

then you are not paying attention. Below are two links non-Christian links which demonstrate the reality of this taking place in the world now:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Global Spirit - The World Commission on Global Consciousness & Spirituality


Global Spirituality

No doubt in my mind you're just attempting to send me off on yet another wild goose chase with these links. I'll check them out later anyway.

 

[InChrist]

[FONT="]

You can't even find two people who profess the same religion who agree on the interpretation of a passage from their scripture
[/FONT]

True, but the emerging global spirituality is and will be inclusive enough (initially) to allow for unity with diversity. You know the, "what is true for you is truth and what is true for me is truth" type of thing.

 

[Quagmire]

Global Spirit - The World Commission on Global Consciousness & Spirituality


Global Spirituality

Yup, I was right: neither of these links demonstrates anything other than your own tendency and talent for reading things into the bible that aren't actually there.

 

[InChrist]

No, it's already here, and it always has been.

Well, you are right religions and/or spiritual practices outside of Christ or God's revealed guidelines have always been around, but never have they all merged into one as they are starting to now and will completely do so under the antichrist world ruler.

OK, first off, the word "Apostasy" isn't even in any respected version of the Bible. The few fringe versions that it does appear in actually have to add entire sentences in order to make it's presence in the verse even appear to make any sense. What does that tell you?

Okay, if you want to be more precise the scriptures use terms and phrases such as: doctrines of demons, fables, false teachings, heresies.

Secondly, the word doesn't mean what you're claiming it means.

What am I claiming it means?

 

[Quagmire]

Well, you are right religions and/or spiritual practices outside of Christ or God's revealed guidelines have always been around, but never have they all merged into one as they are starting to now and will completely do so under the antichrist world ruler.

You'r treating your opinions and beliefs as universally accepted fact here, which, apparently, in your view excuses you from having to present any legitimate facts.

This is all fine if you're trying to give a sermon, but it isn't acceptable in a debate.

Okay, if you want to be more precise the scriptures use terms and phrases such as: doctrines of demons, fables, false teachings, heresies.

More precise than adding entire sentences to already established verses in order to make them mean what you would like them to mean? Yes, I think we should be a little more precise than that.

In any case, the verses where "apostasy" is edited into the script don't actually use any of those terms you mention above either.

Quit ad-libbing.

What am I claiming it means?

You're trying to imply that the term "apostasy" is literally a synonym for self-deification. It isn't.

The only context where it could even be considered such is within a very narrow and fanatical religious framework. Which is fine within that framework, but attempting to bridge the gap between the words literal meaning and the agreed upon ramifications of the act itself (within that framework) by trying to introduce elements of dogma into an argument as if they were universally recognized facts is cheating (and pointless).

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Well, you are right religions and/or spiritual practices outside of Christ or God's revealed guidelines have always been around, but never have they all merged into one as they are starting to now and will completely do so under the antichrist world ruler.

I see no merging in to one. There is now more diversity of thought in the Christian Church since before the time before Constantine.

 

[InChrist]

You'r treating your opinions and beliefs as universally accepted fact here, which, apparently, in your view excuses you from having to present any legitimate facts.

This is all fine if you're trying to give a sermon, but it isn't acceptable in a debate.

Are you saying that you do not believe there are any movements or groups in the world today with the intent and goal of bringing all religions together in some kind of global unity?

More precise than adding entire sentences to already established verses in order to make them mean what you would like them to mean? Yes, I think we should be a little more precise than that.

In any case, the verses where "apostasy" is edited into the script don't actually use any of those terms you mention above either.

Quit ad-libbing.

The version I read does not use the term "apostasy", but does use the terms I mentioned.

You're trying to imply that the term "apostasy" is literally a synonym for self-deification. It isn't.

The only context where it could even be considered such is within a very narrow and fanatical religious framework. Which is fine within that framework, but attempting to bridge the gap between the words literal meaning and the agreed upon ramifications of the act itself (within that framework) by trying to introduce elements of dogma into an argument as if they were universally recognized facts is cheating (and pointless).

[/quote]

I think the biblical perspective is that that anyone or anything (including a humanistic and/or a religious system) which is exalted above or in place of God the Creator of heaven and earth (and His revealed truth) is a departure from such truth and is therefore considered apostasy and an attempt of self-deification.

You certainly can accuse me to be working within a fanatical framework or say I am cheating, but the perspective and worldview as presented in the Bible is reality to me and I find it not only fanatical, but foolish that one rejects the information given by the Creator as it relates to what is going on in this world, especially when it is easy to see it taking place.

 

[bigbadgirl]

The worlds fastest growing religion is no religion at all.