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What proof do you have of God?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Well, OK. I'd be curious to see you do any sort of substantial logic without the use of language.



I don't have any authority at all beyond my ability to argue for my positions.

Well, unless I meet a prophet on the road. In that case, I counter his 100% authority with my own 100% authority. It's the only way to deal with a prophet, I think.



I'm not sure what you mean. But taking a stab at it, I'll observe that fiction writers are entirely capable of creating parables for their characters to speak.

Logic vs. language.....could be a topic thread!?

For the moment....
Logic is not always word play.
Take a look around this forum and you will see tons of thread unraveled by the dribble of senseless wordplay.

When the logic and direction of thought move to a conclusion....
some participants retreat to retort and wordplay.

Logic can be demonstrated in so many perspectives.
The parables of the Carpenter are such example.
Fictional characters and fictional stories.

And the logic is firm.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Logic vs. language.....could be a topic thread!?

Sure. But try doing it without language.:)

Logic is not always word play.
Take a look around this forum and you will see tons of thread unraveled by the dribble of senseless wordplay.

Some people sincerely want to communicate. Others want to win the belief battle, no matter how cynically. Language can be used for good or evil, just like any other human tool.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Sure. But try doing it without language.:)



Some people sincerely want to communicate. Others want to win the belief battle, no matter how cynically. Language can be used for good or evil, just like any other human tool.

So when it comes to proof of God....shall we be cynical?
Or shall we look up?
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
So when it comes to proof of God....shall we be cynical?
Or shall we look up?

We shall study the evidence in good faith and reach whatever conclusion seems most true to us. If some conscious being created us, that's what the conscious being would want of us, I think.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
No, actually you've twice simply given me synonyms ('concept' and 'idea') and then refused to discuss it further. In my experience, that's what people do who are not confident in their own beliefs. They want to get out of the room without saying anything more than necessary.
No I actually quoted the official definition for them. No people are short with people who fit this saying. To give truth to those who love it not is only to increase opportunity for contention. Some people if you claim the Sun is hot will contend with it or any other pesky fact that is in the way.

It sound spooky, but I give you my full permission to bear down with the heat. It might be nice. My thumbs are kinda chilly anyway. Their skin is worn away -- what with all the twiddling they've been up to since we met.:) [Edit: I just realized that you're using a baseball metaphor. Forgive my ignorance of the game, and forgive my laziness for not adjusting my answer.]
My metaphor must be humored. Since I happen to be discussing it on another thread how about the Tyre prophecy. Either prove it wrong (it is the favorite target and should be easy for you) or give me an equivalent prophecy that can back up your source of the Divine.


Actually I own several dictionaries, though I rarely open one. There is no need to recite official definitions to me. A theologian can define his own terms, in his own words, and I was thinking that you aspired to be a theologian?
Why do you think that? Devates require common ground, usually an well accepted criteria. In this case the one I posted was accurate with my understanding so use it.

I have not been dealt from a standard deck, that's true. (Straight line, for your pleasure.)
I won't fire at an unarmed target.

So the first number didn't reflect the year? 1 = freshman; 2 = sophomore? With anything higher than 4 being a graduate-level course?
This is not worth persuing. This post is to long already.

I'm trying to build a pond and need to figure the watershed. Could you give me some pointers on how to do that?
Die packs. What are you trying to figure in flow rates, or overspill, sealing, size, what????


A fair study, even with the embedded insult. Thanks. So you agree that it isn't contradictory. Great. Then neither is the following statement contradictory, yes?
Nor was ever contradictory or meaningfull. There was no point to it. It had no purpose and in Orwell's socialist utopia 1984 it must be destroyed.

I have proven all my points in this debate [to me], and I have proven none of my points in this debate [to you].
Even adding in the new information it is still a meaningless statemement. It has no purpose. It is a trivial exercise in futility and has no explanitory power.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
.... the Tyre prophecy. Either prove it wrong (it is the favorite target and should be easy for you) or give me an equivalent prophecy that can back up your source of the Divine.

As I told you when we first met: No true God does magic tricks.

So why do you ask me to argue that my God does better magic tricks than your God?

Why do you think that? Devates require common ground, usually an well accepted criteria. In this case the one I posted was accurate with my understanding so use it.

You have me in a corner. I don't want to hurt your feelings (although the more I speak with you, the more impossible I think that would be) so I have difficulty pointing out that your writing is simply incomprehensible. It makes little or no sense to me.

Just to be certain, I have googled the noun 'devate' and can't find a single English word in that form.

This is a place for communication in written English. Can't you please work just a little harder to organize your thoughts and words and put them into a sharable form?

This is not worth persuing. This post is to long already.

We learn as much about other people from what they refuse to discuss as we do from what they discuss.

Die packs. What are you trying to figure in flow rates, or overspill, sealing, size, what????

Dye packs? To figure the area of a watershed? Can you tell me how that would work? I'm intrigued by that.

I have no idea what you mean by sealing or size. 'Flow rate' and 'overspill' make a bit more sense, but nothing to do with my question.

Let me clarify: I'm trying to figure out how many acres of rainwater will run into my pond. How do I determine that? If you can help me with that question, maybe I'll have other questions. Have you ever engineered an impounded body of water?

Nor was ever contradictory or meaningfull. There was no point to it. It had no purpose and in Orwell's socialist utopia 1984 it must be destroyed.

As I told you, people who are intimidated by my questions will usually curse them as they decline to answer them. It has always been so.

Even adding in the new information it is still a meaningless statemement. It has no purpose. It is a trivial exercise in futility and has no explanitory power.

First, it is not new information. May I ask if you have some kind of memory condition? Don't answer if it's too personal, but I am curious about it. You don't seem to retain information in the same way as some others do.

Second, there's no need to curse my questions. Just pretend that you didn't see them or forgot to answer. That way, you won't make me cry so much.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
As I told you when we first met: No true God does magic tricks. So why do you ask me to argue that my God does better magic tricks than your God?
You can't know your premise and your question in conclusion is illogical. If God created the universe, if he created the mind, if he orchestrates the future, if he has soverignty, and if he is omnicapable then he does supernatural acts (Magic if that's the best word you have for it). If he does not then he is not God and we need not be concerned with him. Mine can and did and so you have concluded the matter before the contest was even began and you want the heat huh. You can't handle this softball. Why should I bear down?


You have me in a corner. I don't want to hurt your feelings (although the more I speak with you, the more impossible I think that would be) so I have difficulty pointing out that your writing is simply incomprehensible. It makes little or no sense to me. Just to be certain, I have googled the noun 'devate' and can't find a single English word in that form.
I will have to concede this point. Enjoy it I am sure that does not happen often for you. I can't spell anything. This computer will not install the spell check program and unless it is important I do not copy and paste to word then to word pad and then here to get it perfect. Devate should have been debate. I would have thought a language master could have figured that out by the context but it was my mistake.


We learn as much about other people from what they refuse to discuss as we do from what they discuss.
Ok, I guess you learned I do not discuss trivial issues concerning college course numbering systems in long posts indefinately. I am sure a Nobel is in the works for that briliant deduction.


Dye packs? To figure the area of a watershed? Can you tell me how that would work? I'm intrigued by that.
You still have not told me what it is specifically that you are asking about. You do not build watersheds for a pond normally, they exist in nature. I was giving you a way of identifying what water sources wind up in your pond location by tracing dye. You will have to be specific (I know that's a struggle but I believe you can do it) before I could offer any real help. I was in electrical engineering by the way but did serve in the sea-bees for a little while.

Let me clarify: I'm trying to figure out how many acres of rainwater will run into my pond. How do I determine that? If you can help me with that question, maybe I'll have other questions. Have you ever engineered an impounded body of water?
Nope, but I have performed flow rate studies. The issue that you are asking about I am not sure what the question actually is, it depends on what drains through the area. You must identify what drains into your pond area (dye packs). I would think that establishing how many acres once which water courses drain through the area would be a simple matter. However acres does not equal water quantity for volume. I must be missing something in your question. Perk tests, natural pond sealing verses artificial sealing, over spill rates, rain fall, and many other factors affect the concept.



As I told you, people who are intimidated by my questions will usually curse them as they decline to answer them. It has always been so.
I think it has always been that when people do not think a question worth the trouble and point that out you spin that into what you have stated. I do not answer things because they are silly, incomplete, incoherent, or I do not have time. The harder and more profound a question is the more effort I put into it. Jaylo issues do not meet that standard.


First, it is not new information. May I ask if you have some kind of memory condition? Don't answer if it's too personal, but I am curious about it. You don't seem to retain information in the same way as some others do.
I debate in many threads at once. Many are much more in depth and require much research. I also work in a defence industry F-15 avionics lab and troublshoot LRUs from fighters. Weapons systems, radar, HUDs, Rubidium gas oscillators, etc and that takes a lot of time and thinking. I also devote my thinking time based on the importance of the issues. Plus my memory is not as sharp as I would wish. All that adds up to a lot. However I do not think that has anything to do with this statement:



I have proven all my points in this debate [to me], and I have proven none of my points in this debate [to you].
The bolded sections are new to me.

Second, there's no need to curse my questions. Just pretend that you didn't see them or forgot to answer. That way, you won't make me cry so much.
I am here for two reasons. My faith grows as it is challenged and God meets the challenges, and I appreciate a good scientific or philisophic challenge or profound thought. I do not like incomplete questions or thoughts put forth as meaningfull ones, but you have been civil and entertaining. Normally I would have bailed long ago, but I have not cursed anything. Simply pointed out the ineffectiveness of the statements. Enjoy the typeOs and memory lapses. Selah.
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
I see lots of people complaining about 1Robin grammar. I don't agree with anything he have said. But I won't claim his writing is unintelligible. Maybe he's not english but, come on, I understand him perfectly. Don't be so picky biches :p
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see lots of people complaining about 1Robin grammar. I don't agree with anything he have said. But I won't claim his writing is unintelligible. Maybe he's not english but, come on, I understand him perfectly

I understand him.... and I love your hat. It looks like a lime but a lime is too small to fit on a cat's head. Proof of God? There isn't any. Just the way it should be, don't you think?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I see lots of people complaining about 1Robin grammar. I don't agree with anything he have said. But I won't claim his writing is unintelligible. Maybe he's not english but, come on, I understand him perfectly. Don't be so picky biches
Well if you won't I will. He sucks at grammar and he doesn't care. Actually I am stuck with a computer I can't access the spell check on. I am without it quite lost but as you have said I think I am understandable to anyone who wishes to. I appreciate your sentiments, and I am not English I am from Alabama. We can't do anything but play football and build missiles to get to the moon.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well if you won't I will. He sucks at grammar and he doesn't care. Actually I am stuck with a computer I can't access the spell check on. I am without it quite lost but as you have said I think I am understandable to anyone who wishes to. I appreciate your sentiments, and I am not English I am from Alabama. We can't do anything but play football and build missiles to get to the moon.

I must save this post
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
Well if you won't I will. He sucks at grammar and he doesn't care. Actually I am stuck with a computer I can't access the spell check on. I am without it quite lost but as you have said I think I am understandable to anyone who wishes to. I appreciate your sentiments, and I am not English I am from Alabama. We can't do anything but play football and build missiles to get to the moon.

hahaha that's one good way to say it dude!
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I must save this post
Why? Half of it is probably misspelled. I have never liked grammer, it is based on literally nothing. Math and Physics have natural law to guide them, English has some guy's arbitrary decision to do this instead of that. Which will be changed next year for no better arbitrary reason than it was originally established by.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I see lots of people complaining about 1Robin grammar. I don't agree with anything he have said. But I won't claim his writing is unintelligible. Maybe he's not english but, come on, I understand him perfectly. Don't be so picky biches :p

I have to disagree. I doubt very much that you understand him perfectly, although I'm sure that you believe that you do. We all have a tendency to see a message and assume we know the speaker's intent.

For myself, I think I understand about 85% of what he says, but I'm only sure that I understand about 50% of it. And for me, those numbers are too low.

Maybe I'll ask you to translate some of his messages for me.:)

He'd definitely American, in my opinion. But I understand your messages better than I understand his, despite your occasional misconjugations and misplaced articles. English doesn't seem to be your first language, but you write understandably.

(An American would never write 'anything he have said.' It's in their bones to write, "anything he has said." But that's an inconsequential error which doesn't interfere at all with your meaning.)
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
You can't know your premise....
Of course I can know my premise. What the heck are you talking about?

If God created the universe, if he created the mind, if he orchestrates the future, if he has soverignty, and if he is omnicapable then he does supernatural acts (Magic if that's the best word you have for it).
You can't know any of those premises.

So your conclusion is simply your own personal conjecture. Why should I accept you as a prophet of God but reject my own humble self as a premise-knowing and conclusion-making prophet?

If he does not then he is not God and we need not be concerned with him. Mine can and did and so you have concluded the matter before the contest was even began and you want the heat huh. You can't handle this softball. Why should I bear down?
A major league baseball star visited a junior high school. For fun and for some publicity photos, he agreed to take the field with the girls' baseball team. The school coach allowed a third-string pitcher to lob some balls to the baseball star, but the dear girl couldn't even reach the plate with her best efforts. She couldn't get the ball anywhere near the strike zone. The baseball player felt so sorry for her and behaved with extra politeness toward her, so he was amazed when the little girl began to taunt him.

"You'd better be glad that I don't bear down, Mister Bigshot! You can't even handle these lobs. Imagine if I gave you the real heat!"

On the drive back home, the player mused on that little girl, amazed at how anyone in the whole world can think themselves masterful at anything at all, no matter any evidence otherwise.

Anyway, I just felt like telling that little story, 1robin. Not sure exactly why.

... unless it is important I do not copy and paste to word then to word pad and then here to get it perfect.
It is important. I assume you have come to this place to instruct the world in the Actual Truth of Christianity. To me, you don't seem interested in learning. You certainly don't seem to be here to work on your debate skills. So you must be here to convince others of your truth. That's my best guess.

But you aren't doing a very good job of that. Let's put aside the larger issues of good logic, serious presentation of evidence, defining terms, and other advanced debate skills. You are making me struggle to even understand your sentences.

If you want to be effective in whatever you're trying to do here, I really think you need to focus a bit on your writing. It is the tool which we use. How can you use a tool to do something while being dismissive of your tool skills? Does that seem sensible?

Devate should have been debate. I would have thought a language master could have figured that out by the context but it was my mistake.
I probably could have figured it out if I'd spent another few minutes on it, but I just don't love you enough to do that. I love you plenty, but not enough to waste too much of my valuable time trying to decipher your more obscure spellings and grammar.

Ok, I guess you learned I do not discuss trivial issues concerning college course numbering systems in long posts indefinately.
No, I learned that you will not discuss college course numbering systems at all, which I find curious and interesting.

You still have not told me what it is specifically that you are asking about. You do not build watersheds for a pond normally, they exist in nature.
I told you precisely what I'm asking about and didn't say a single world about 'building' watersheds.

Don't engineers need to be careful readers? If I asked my engineer to figure the size of a watershed for me, he would not reply that watersheds exist in nature and that I don't need to build one. He would just describe how to figure the size of a watershed. (Get a topo map. Draw a line along all the ridges from which water flows toward my pond. Calculate the area of the resulting outline. Presto: You've got the size of the watershed.)

In your defense, I will say that my experience with engineers has led me to see them as cluttered thinkers. If they can complicate a matter beyond all reason, they'll usually do so.

I was giving you a way of identifying what water sources wind up in your pond location by tracing dye.
Do you know how to use a topographical map? If so, why on earth would you use dye packs to figure the area of a watershed? I can't even understand how you could figure the area of a watershed using dyepacks. Can you explain it in small concepts and words, for a simple poet like me?

I do not answer things because they are silly, incomplete, incoherent, or I do not have time.
Yeah, it's what they all say. It's funny that most of them have plenty of time to insult my questions but no time at all to actually answer them. I think they are simply afraid of my questions. It's the best explanation I've been able to figure.

The bolded sections are new to me.
Well, they were the central focus of our earlier discussion. It's very hard for me to imagine how an attentive person could have forgotten them in such a short time. I can only conclude that you are not paying attention to our dialogue or else that your memory doesn't function as mine does.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Why? That is a fair question. For this;
I was just kidding about why. We are quite a dicotomy here. We are known for being un educated and NASA. We are known for being poor but the county I live in is one of the most affluent per capita in the SE. I went to one of the finest engineering schools in the US and can't spell. We have one of the worst school systems and the best football team.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Of course I can know my premise. What the heck are you talking about?
No you do not. There is no way possible for you to conclude God does not do miracles (magic). You simply decided that was the case and have no way what so ever to prove it. You did not exist 1000 years ago or on a planet 1 billion light years away. You can't test what you claim. All evidence in the Bible refutes you claim. You can't argue from any absence of evidence that you think does not exist. That is an argument from silence and is a fallacy.
You can't know any of those premises.
For goodness sake that is why I put if in front of every claim I made. You didn't.
So your conclusion is simply your own personal conjecture. Why should I accept you as a prophet of God but reject my own humble self as a premise-knowing and conclusion-making prophet?
No it is a logically consistent deduction if the premise is assumed. It is a logical conclusion from a hypothetical premise and stated as such. See the difference?
A major league baseball star visited a junior high school. For fun and for some publicity photos, he agreed to take the field with the girls' baseball team. The school coach allowed a third-string pitcher to lob some balls to the baseball star, but the dear girl couldn't even reach the plate with her best efforts. She couldn't get the ball anywhere near the strike zone. The baseball player felt so sorry for her and behaved with extra politeness toward her, so he was amazed when the little girl began to taunt him.
"You'd better be glad that I don't bear down, Mister Bigshot! (Big shot) You can't even handle these lobs. Imagine if I gave you the real heat!"
On the drive back home, the player mused on that little girl, amazed at how anyone in the whole world can think themselves masterful at anything at all, no matter any evidence otherwise.
Anyway, I just felt like telling that little story, 1robin. Not sure exactly why.
Neither am I. It has no connection to what you have been doing, as the first two statements clearly show.
It is important. I assume you have come to this place to instruct the world in the Actual Truth of Christianity. To me, you don't seem interested in learning. You certainly don't seem to be here to work on your debate skills. So you must be here to convince others of your truth. That's my best guess.
You have to demonstrate the possession of knowledge and the ability to teach and you have done neither.
But you aren't doing a very good job of that. Let's put aside the larger issues of good logic, serious presentation of evidence, defining terms, and other advanced debate skills. You are making me struggle to even understand your sentences.
You can act like an occasional grammatical error is causing you all this trouble if you wish but as can be seen by others comments it isn't that hard to know what I mean.
No, I learned that you will not discuss college course numbering systems at all, which I find curious and interesting.
The fact you find that meaningful speaks volumes. The reason was when I looked for the number you had posted that didn't make any sense to me I could not find it quickly and realized it is a trivial issue anyway and not worth the effort. Are you challenging my claims of a college education? I think a bet is in order if that is true?
I told you precisely what I'm asking about and didn't say a single
world about 'building' watersheds.
As every other grammar critic that I see. You might want to move out of the glass house. You said you wanted to know how many acres you have in a watershed. I do not know why that would be important to build a pond. What you need is to know what will empty into your pond. That can be found party by using die packs.
Don't engineers need to be careful readers? If I asked my engineer to figure the size of a watershed for me, he would not reply that watersheds exist in nature and that I don't need to build one. He would just describe how to figure the size of a watershed. (Get a topo map. Draw a line along all the ridges from which water flows toward my pond. Calculate the area of the resulting outline. Presto: You've got the size of the watershed.)
Then why did you ask. I couldn't and can't think of a reason why you would want to know what you seem to be asking and so I was examining other more meaningful issues. You questions and most of your contentions are so hard to track that adding in one concerning watershed is just to add to the confusion. So I will no longer contribute to it.
In your defense, I will say that my experience with engineers has led me to see them as cluttered thinkers. If they can complicate a matter beyond all reason, they'll usually do so.
Well there is definitely some truth to that. Regardless they are who is called in to get us to the moon or build a bridge. I am not an engineer by the way. I never finished my electrical eng degree. I transferred to mathematic education my senior year because engineering is dry and boring but I am currently doing avionics engineering support for the air force.
Do you know how to use a topographical map? If so, why on earth would you use dye packs to figure the area of a watershed? I can't even understand how you could figure the area of a watershed using dyepacks. Can you explain it in small concepts and words, for a simple poet like me?
Some water courses contribute to more than one water shed and when dealing with a pond's tiny watershed normal maps are not enough. Plus in that very small water shed construction can change the dynamics. Just forget it we have enough non hydo related issues in the works.
Yeah, it's what they all say. It's funny that most of them have plenty of time to insult my questions but no time at all to actually answer them. I think they are simply afraid of my questions. It's the best explanation I've been able to figure.
Whatever you need to do to maintain the illusion.
Well, they were the central focus of our earlier discussion. It's very hard for me to imagine how an attentive person could have forgotten them in such a short time. I can only conclude that you are not paying attention to our dialogue or else that your memory doesn't function as mine does.
No they were not. I continuously complained that the question was incomplete specifically because you did not include those terms which was what I knew you were driving at but wanted to see if you would ever get there.
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
No you do not. There is no way possible for you to conclude God does not do miracles (magic). You simply decided that was the case and have no way what so ever to prove it. You did not exist 1000 years ago or on a planet 1 billion light years away. You can't test what you claim. All evidence in the Bible refutes you claim. You can't argue from any absence of evidence that you think does not exist. That is an argument from silence and is a fallacy.


But dude. Do you feel honest giving that kind of arguments? You can not test I'm unable to do miracles either :/
 
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