What Really Happened? A Coup Attempt?

[Revoltingest]

Their intent is relevant if amongst them there were there those with a specific intent for assasination. That as opposed to just violent mob mentality. I think that's the deeper question, and what the video, and other material I have been reading is exposing us to. If their intent was murder, that ratchets up the charges a level higher, I would suppose.

I understand the distinction you're making. What I'm addressing
is when a person does wrong, eg, arson, assault, committing the
act is part of who that person is, regardless of reasons they give.

 

[Revoltingest]

A failed coup is still a coup. Don’t dismiss the seriousness of this just because some of those involved looked like idiots. What would have happened if they actually caught a Senator or Representative, or a Vice President? Would they have been taken hostage or executed? That very nearly happened.

And I advise against making what happened larger than what
it was. It was far far less than actual coups we've seen in other
countries, eg, Iran in 1953. Now that was a coup.
What we saw was more about a bunch of coup-minded, loud
mouthed, selfie loving rabble facing inadequate security.
Take'm seriously....but don't panic.

 

[fantome profane]

And I advise against making what happened larger than what
it was. It was far far less than actual coups we've seen in other
countries, eg, Iran in 1953. Now that was a coup.
What we saw was more about a bunch of coup-minded, loud
mouthed, selfie loving rabble facing inadequate security.
Take'm seriously....but don't panic.

It was an attempt to overthrow through violence a democratically elected government and install an authoritarian leader. That is what it was.

 

[Revoltingest]

It was an attempt to overthrow through violence a democratically elected government and install an authoritarian leader. That is what it was.

To not consider the degree of organization & intent
is to make it equivalent to a full blown coup. This
was not one of those. Had there been adqequate
& normal security for a potentially violent demonstration,
we wouldn't be even having this discussion.
So....."coup lite".

About the security....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...2ce7d4-5384-11eb-a817-e5e7f8a406d6_story.html
Excerpted...
Two days before Congress was set to formalize President-elect Joe Biden’s victory, Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund was growing increasingly worried about the size of the pro-Trump crowds expected to stream into Washington in protest.
To be on the safe side, Sund asked House and Senate security officials for permission to request that the D.C. National Guard be placed on standby in case he needed quick backup.
But, Sund said Sunday, they turned him down.
In his first interview since pro-Trump rioters stormed the U.S. Capitol last week, Sund, who has since resigned his post, said his supervisors were reluctant to take formal steps to put the Guard on call even as police intelligence suggested that the crowd President Trump had invited to Washington to protest his defeat probably would be much larger than earlier demonstrations.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think they intended to actually execute state senators, as well as Mike Pence. The clowns you see in the news, are not the real dark actors here. If that had succeeded, imagine what today would be looking like, as opposed to what the stunned world is looking at today? It could have been a much, much darker day.

As recently as an hour ago someone based in Taiwan has spread rumors on youtube that Trump has as of midnight attempted to activate the insurrection act, to take military control, that Pence will no longer be VP, that it will be ex Gen. Flynn, etc. Maybe they are trying to upset the Taiwanese people or something. I don't know.

On the other hand it may be based in Taiwan yet actually a right wing US group. They come across that way like they are right wing US and are excited about the activation of the act.

 

[Stevicus]

The problem is that the ordinary words we use to describe despicable acts usually imply a high degree of intelligence was behind them.

Words like “crime”, and “corruption”, and “coup”, or even “Russian plant”.

It’s hard to imagine Donald Trump being behind any of these things until you realize, stupid people can do them, too.

This was a Donald Trump coup in the same way that there was a Donald Trump university. It was real. It was comical. It also seriously hurt people.

I think what I've noticed is that there are those who see an event, then make an interpretation of what it could possibly mean (which is opinion), and then expect others to share their interpretations.

It's not enough to simply agree upon the facts, but there seems to be a strong and heavy-handed expectation of emotional conformity. It's not enough to simply oppose Trump, but unless one hates him with every fiber of their being, they're a "deplorable." This is the kind of rhetoric I've been seeing these past years.

The same tactic can be seen from the pro-Trump side, too, as they deem anyone who is not 110% behind Trump as some kind of "traitor."

A bunch of people raised a ruckus at the Capitol. They apparently dispersed after a few hours, and now many of them are being identified, located, and arrested. They clearly committed crimes and are expected to be prosecuted (unless Trump pardons them). There were serious injuries and deaths, although there have been previous riots which lasted for days and had even more deaths. These are objective facts which I think everyone can agree upon.

As to whether it constituted a "coup," that's an interpretation and a perception of motives and intentions. To say it's "deplorable" or "evil" would be an opinion, not fact.

Underlying all this is what I would see as a profound clash of values going on within America - and it has been going on for quite some time. Some people see it as an epic battle of "good vs. evil," but I see it as "American vs. American."

 

[Stevicus]

To not consider the degree of organization & intent
is to make it equivalent to a full blown coup. This
was not one of those. Had there been adqequate
& normal security for a potentially violent demonstration,
we wouldn't be even having this discussion.
So....."coup lite".

About the security....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...2ce7d4-5384-11eb-a817-e5e7f8a406d6_story.html
Excerpted...
Two days before Congress was set to formalize President-elect Joe Biden’s victory, Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund was growing increasingly worried about the size of the pro-Trump crowds expected to stream into Washington in protest.
To be on the safe side, Sund asked House and Senate security officials for permission to request that the D.C. National Guard be placed on standby in case he needed quick backup.
But, Sund said Sunday, they turned him down.
In his first interview since pro-Trump rioters stormed the U.S. Capitol last week, Sund, who has since resigned his post, said his supervisors were reluctant to take formal steps to put the Guard on call even as police intelligence suggested that the crowd President Trump had invited to Washington to protest his defeat probably would be much larger than earlier demonstrations.

I read about that, too: Capitol police were overrun, 'left naked' against rioters (apnews.com)

Trump doesn't oversee the Capitol Police, as they have their own jurisdiction and chain of command under the Capitol Police Board (Capitol Police Board - Wikipedia), which is overseen by the Architect of the Capitol and the Sergeants At Arms of the Senate and House. So, if they weren't prepared or properly reinforced, that's largely on the Congress itself.

 

[Revoltingest]

I read about that, too: Capitol police were overrun, 'left naked' against rioters (apnews.com)

Trump doesn't oversee the Capitol Police, as they have their own jurisdiction and chain of command under the Capitol Police Board (Capitol Police Board - Wikipedia), which is overseen by the Architect of the Capitol and the Sergeants At Arms of the Senate and House. So, if they weren't prepared or properly reinforced, that's largely on the Congress itself.

I'd expect that the Sergeant At Arms (Irving) & Congress would
be in close communication when planning for a potentially hostile
demonstration. Irving was concerned with "optics" in denying
back-up for the Capitol Police. But that consideration should
involve Congress. So I agree that Congress is ultimately
culpable for the security lapse.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I think what I've noticed is that there are those who see an event, then make an interpretation of what it could possibly mean (which is opinion), and then expect others to share their interpretations.

It's not enough to simply agree upon the facts, but there seems to be a strong and heavy-handed expectation of emotional conformity. It's not enough to simply oppose Trump, but unless one hates him with every fiber of their being, they're a "deplorable." This is the kind of rhetoric I've been seeing these past years.

The same tactic can be seen from the pro-Trump side, too, as they deem anyone who is not 110% behind Trump as some kind of "traitor."

A bunch of people raised a ruckus at the Capitol. They apparently dispersed after a few hours, and now many of them are being identified, located, and arrested. They clearly committed crimes and are expected to be prosecuted (unless Trump pardons them). There were serious injuries and deaths, although there have been previous riots which lasted for days and had even more deaths. These are objective facts which I think everyone can agree upon.

As to whether it constituted a "coup," that's an interpretation and a perception of motives and intentions. To say it's "deplorable" or "evil" would be an opinion, not fact.

Underlying all this is what I would see as a profound clash of values going on within America - and it has been going on for quite some time. Some people see it as an epic battle of "good vs. evil," but I see it as "American vs. American."

Yes.
Unfortunately, regarding the election contest and who should be inaugurated on January 20, one side has lost its grip on reality.

At this point even Mitch McConnell, Lindsay Graham, Bill Barr, Mick Mulvaney and many other former Trump allies have admitted he’s basically a nutcase.

Contrast that with 100 House Republicans who quite literally voted to not certify the electoral college vote for Biden even after the Capitol was retaken on January 6.

Rep Matt Gaetz of Florida literally said on the House chamber, footsteps from where Secret Service shot and killed a woman wearing a Trump flag like a cape only hours earlier, that Antifa was partly to blame for the violence. Because, he claimed, facial recognition software companies had identified them. Rep Gaetz is getting information from his right-wing social media feed instead of his own eyes. Then he voted against recognizing Biden as the winner.

So yes it’s American vs American ... but in this specific case, one group of Americans are simply out of their minds. Disagreement I get. Denying reality and the democratic process ... I simply can’t respect it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I read about that, too: Capitol police were overrun, 'left naked' against rioters (apnews.com)

Trump doesn't oversee the Capitol Police, as they have their own jurisdiction and chain of command under the Capitol Police Board (Capitol Police Board - Wikipedia), which is overseen by the Architect of the Capitol and the Sergeants At Arms of the Senate and House. So, if they weren't prepared or properly reinforced, that's largely on the Congress itself.

Yes, agreed.

The guardrails of our democracy buckled and failed this time. That is a security failure of Congress and Capitol Police and the DC Mayor.

But it is also Trump’s fault for constantly testing the guardrails for weakness and ramming them, not just this time but for five years.

We have allowed a maniac to sit in the pilot’s seat expecting the co-pilot to override him and not make any mistakes. The co-pilot made a mistake this time. It could have been much worse - and it may in fact get much worse.

 

[ecco]

And I advise against making what happened larger than what
it was. It was far far less than actual coups we've seen in other
countries, eg, Iran in 1953. Now that was a coup.
What we saw was more about a bunch of coup-minded, loud
mouthed, selfie loving rabble facing inadequate security.
Take'm seriously....but don't panic.

I wonder if Mike Pence should take seriously the chants of "hang Pence".

It wasn't "far far less than actual coups we've seen in other
countries". It wasn't a coup at all. The Government wasn't overthrown.

It was an act of violent terrorism. One Capital policeman was killed. Many were injured. Those involved must be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

The enablers must also be punished. There is little we can do about the Brietbarts spreading lies. However, people like Cruz and Graham and Hawley should be censured by Congress and removed from their seats. Companies like Fox should fire people like Hannity who continuously lied about the election results.

 

[Stevicus]

So yes it’s American vs American ... but in this specific case, one group of Americans are simply out of their minds. Disagreement I get. Denying reality and the democratic process ... I simply can’t respect it.

Yes, that's kind of where it's at, but I think it goes beyond the actual election and the certification.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wonder if Mike Pence should take seriously the chants of "hang Pence".

It wasn't "far far less than actual coups we've seen in other
countries". It wasn't a coup at all. The Government wasn't overthrown.

It was an act of violent terrorism. One Capital policeman was killed. Many were injured. Those involved must be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

The enablers must also be punished. There is little we can do about the Brietbarts spreading lies. However, people like Cruz and Graham and Hawley should be censured by Congress and removed from their seats. Companies like Fox should fire people like Hannity who continuously lied about the election results.

To call it "terrorism" instead of "insurrection" or "sedition"
is an error....a misuse of the word. The latter terms are
not only more accurate...they're more severe criticism
of what the perps did.

 

[ecco]

For years I've posted that Trump poses a serious danger to the country. I've posted that he is a wannabe dictator along the lines of Mussolini. I've pointed out that his diminishment of the press is what wannabe dictators do as one of the first steps to control public sentiment and discourse. I posted about his narcissism and his pathological lies.

Some people who are (or at least were) open supporters of Trump criticized me for my outlandish thoughts. I understand where these people are coming from.

Yet there are other people, who insist they are not Trump supporters, who consistently criticized my posts and consistently downplayed Trump's outlandish behavior. This I do not understand. Are they just pretending or are they really internally confused?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think there was (or is) a website called “Trump dot win.”
I’ll see if I can track down the source (a lot of pro trump sites have since been “purged” apparently) but there were posts detailing specific politicians and their details. And thinly veiled “instructions” for people attending the insurrection thing.
So I mean I think there were some who wanted to take hostages. I can’t be certain, though. Maybe they were trolling. Hope they were trolling more like. Sheesh!

There was a very large group of them chanting "Hang Mike Pence" at the Capitol that day.

 

[SomeRandom]

There was a very large group of them chanting "Hang Mike Pence" at the Capitol that day.

Yikes!

 

[fantome profane]

To not consider the degree of organization & intent
is to make it equivalent to a full blown coup. This
was not one of those. Had there been adqequate
& normal security...

Then they would find another way. How many people were actually involved in 9/11? These domestic terrorists are just as serious and just as dangerous, or much more dangerous. This is far from over. The battle against these violent extremists is going to go on for years.

if you really do take this seriously, don’t give it a cutesy nickname. Just don’t,

 

[Revoltingest]

if you really do take this seriously, don’t give it a cutesy nickname. Just don’t,

It's necessary...to keep you guys from raising it to
the level of a full blown coup. This was not that.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Then they would find another way. How many people were actually involved in 9/11? These domestic terrorists are just as serious and just as dangerous, or much more dangerous. This is far from over. The battle against these violent extremists is going to go on for years.

if you really do take this seriously, don’t give it a cutesy nickname. Just don’t,

It's necessary...to keep you guys from raising it to
the level of a full blown coup. This was not that.

Yeah I tend to agree I wouldn’t call it a coup. Insurrection, or mob incited by the President, will do.

Fantome unfortunately you are right, too. The domestic terrorists will be emboldened by 70 million Karens who create the legitimacy for violence and the myth they are patriots re-enacting 1776.

Law enforcement is going to have its hands full trying to prevent domestic terrorism for the next several days, possibly years.

 

[fantome profane]

It's necessary...to keep you guys from raising it to
the level of a full blown coup. This was not that.

That is exactly what it was. And it is necessary to understand that and to stop you guys from dismissing this as anything else. And when I say it is necessary, I mean it is necessary in order to save lives.