whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Paul did was 'we are the true circumsicion' in Romans.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What say the scriptures?
- Thread starter e.r.m.
- Start date
Paul did was 'we are the true circumsicion' in Romans.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
In the big picture, Jesus and Peter first commanded baptism in Jesus's name after the thief died Matthew 28:19 Acts 2:38-39. The thief would not be expected to fulfill a command that didn't exist until after his death.
Muffled
Jesus in me
It says you must be born again.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe those things do not come forth from water any more that wine turns into blood.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe this is what Jesus says:
Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
leov
Well-Known Member
Water turning to blood is the symbol of Jn. 4. Solvation comes from worshipping on the mountain through 'spirit in truth'.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I'm in Florida, so I'm out of luck. No mountains.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
There are no words
"Get baptize in order publicly identify with Jesus". That's called eisegesis.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Are you saying the written purpose of baptism in Jesus's name is to be born again?
leov
Well-Known Member
Not even a little hill?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
lol, we got a landfill and a few overpasses.
leov
Well-Known Member
good, according to Jn.4 you do not need mountains....
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Thank you.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Though perhaps many could give the (perfectly good) answer it's about committing and showing one's faith or such....one good way to answer is just to go right to the most direct answer in the text.
"And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River." (Mark chapter 1).
Don't discount that one should learn -- look at what happens when John is stopped --
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Thank you, but this passage does not provide a written purpose of baptism in Jesus's name. It speaks of John's baptism, which was different Acts 18:24-26, Acts 19:3-5.
Last edited:
@whirlingmerc replied : In the big picture, the thief on the cross asked to be 'remembered when you came in your kingdom'. In that light it sure sounds rather heavenly. But really what makes heaven to be heaven? The pressence and treasuring of God! and Jesus said you will be with me." That is heavenly" (post 180)
While I would agree that much of what Jesus said was in context to a heavenly existence, paradise was not, in the context of the promise made to Dymas, the Kingdom of God.
While I agree that presence of Jesus will be an integral condition of a future heaven, his presence alone does not create a social heaven, else his presence in front of his enemies would have been "heavenly". My comments applied to the promise Jesus made to Dymas just as Jesus' promise to Dymas concerned a specific paradise, and not a specific heaven.
My specific comments regarding how the early Judeo-Christians viewed baptism describe baptism as part of an entry into a process of sanctification and not as a specific cause of immediate sanctification.
I hope your journey is good Whirlingmerc.
Clear
ειδρφιφυω
While I would agree that much of what Jesus said was in context to a heavenly existence, paradise was not, in the context of the promise made to Dymas, the Kingdom of God.
While I agree that presence of Jesus will be an integral condition of a future heaven, his presence alone does not create a social heaven, else his presence in front of his enemies would have been "heavenly". My comments applied to the promise Jesus made to Dymas just as Jesus' promise to Dymas concerned a specific paradise, and not a specific heaven.
My specific comments regarding how the early Judeo-Christians viewed baptism describe baptism as part of an entry into a process of sanctification and not as a specific cause of immediate sanctification.
I hope your journey is good Whirlingmerc.
Clear
ειδρφιφυω
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Jesus presence alone would not guarantee heaven, but the place called paradise would.
Being judged in front of Jesus would not be termed paradise.
Am I wrong?
The thief on the cross believed Jesus would overcome death and come into a kingdom. That suggests a faith in the resurrection. The thief's belief they were punished justly while Jesus unjustly also suggests a right view of man and God.
Regarding the promise Jesus made to the thief on the cross regarding being in "paradise"
Whirlingmerc said : “Jesus presence alone would not guarantee heaven, but the place called paradise would.” (post #197)
Hi Whirlingmerc
While “paradise” can mean a heavenly place, the promise to Dymas was NOT that Dymas would have "salvation in heaven", but rather, Dymas was promised to be “μετ εμου εν τω παραδεισω” (with me in “PARADISE”). The definition of παραδεισω (paradise) in the LXX, in Mac 7,25&26, in II Mac 5:17 and 7:12 and other places is that of a park, a garden (LXX), “an abode of the blessed dead”. It was the garden outside of the palace. Remember, John 20:17 tells us that Jesus had not yet been to "heaven" where his Father was. In speaking to Mary, he said : "... Hold me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
In the genre of early Christian decensus literature (the literature describing Jesus’ visit to the dead spirits in paradise/hades/sheol/the grave, etc. we have multiple descriptions of the place of the “righteous” dead being called “paradise”. For examples :
Speaking of the expectation that the messiah would visit the dead, it was said : “...And he shall open the gates of paradise, he shall remove the sword that has threatened since Adam, and he will grant to the saints to eat of the tree of life...... Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi ch 18 & 19:1 This text is part of the decensus literature that is referring to Jesus' descent into hades during the three days his body lay in the tomb and he went to the spirits in hades/paradise/sheol, etc. This "paradise" in the place of the dead awaiting resurrection. It is not heaven.
Of the early traditions of the “death” of Melchizedek, the angel Michael is commanded to go down and take an individuals spirit and place it in “paradise” (i.e. the place of the righteous dead). 9 “And Michael took the child on the same night on which he had come down; and he took him on his wings, and he placed him in the paradise of edom.... 11 Thus Nir ended his life. 2nd Enoch 72:9-11; Similarly, This "paradise" in the place of the dead awaiting resurrection. It is not heaven.
Similarly, when the prophet Sedrach reaches the end of his life, the Son of God was sent to take Sedrachs soul to the place of the righteous dead, called “paradise”. “And God said to his only begotten Son, “Go, take the spirit of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5
“THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”
In describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts, both correctly and incorrectly, use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. (I believe they get it correctly more often than RE posters do however…) Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from great confusion.
For example the prophet Enochs description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2En 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, nor was in "the Kingdom of God", but instead, it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
The concept of paradise describing the place of the righteous dead finds it’s way into much of the early literature. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip) The early literature describes both Jesus AND Dymas the thief in this specific place after their death.
DYMAS (THE THIEF ON THE CROSS ALSO ARRIVES IN HADES (THE PART THE EARLY TEXTS CALL PARADISE)
Speaking of these spirits in the middle, it is recorded that Dymas was given a cross and sent to “paradise” with the other spirits who were awaiting resurrection. However, this place is Not “salvation” nor is it “heaven”, but it is the place ‘in between” while the spirits of the dead await resurrection. :
The story continues, and while John the Baptist’s spirit and the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are offering their testimonies of the gospel, other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world (which is the point the sons of symeon make clear in the narrative). Though the complete Story of Dymas is incomplete, it is clear that Jesus’ Promise that he would be in this “paradise” with other spirits was fulfilled as the early Christian literature describes.
Speaking of these spirits in this world of spirits, it is recorded that Dymas was given a cross and sent to “paradise” with the other spirits who were awaiting resurrection : While they were saying this there came another, a humble man, carrying a cross on his shoulder. The holy fathers asked him: “who are you, who have the appearance of a robber, and what is the cross you carry on your shoulder?” He answered: “I was, as you say, a robber and a thief in the world, and therefore the jews took me and delivered me to the death of the cross together with our Lord Jesus Christ. When, therefore, he hung on the cross, I saw the wonders which happened and believed in him. And I appealed to him and said: ‘Lord, when you reign as king, do nor forget me.’ And immediately he said to me: ‘Truly truly, today I say to you, you shall be with me in Paradise’ [Lk 23:43]. So I came into Paradise carrying my cross, and found Michael the archangel, and said to him: ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified, has sent me here. Lead me, therefore, to the gate of Eden.’...Then the archangel said to me: ‘Wait a short while. For Adam also, the forefather of the race of men, comes with the righteous, that they also may enter in....(Ch XI> The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell)
While Dymas is in paradise, it is clear that this specific place is not heaven, nor is it salvation. IF Dymas IS with all of these individuals, then he was with the dead who were sent to be baptized in the Jordan with the rest of the dead (according to this narrative tradition).
While I think it is fine to theorize that the early christians are incorrect in their textual traditions, IF you think Jesus WAS referring to salvation, you could certainly make a case for it. However, I think the early Christian doctrines surrounding baptism as a part of the "PROCESS" of sanctification is quite logical and rational compared to most of the later theological theories I have been exposed to.
In any case Whirlingmerc, I hope your journey is insightful and wonderful.
Clear
ειδρφυφιω
Whirlingmerc said : “Jesus presence alone would not guarantee heaven, but the place called paradise would.” (post #197)
Hi Whirlingmerc
While “paradise” can mean a heavenly place, the promise to Dymas was NOT that Dymas would have "salvation in heaven", but rather, Dymas was promised to be “μετ εμου εν τω παραδεισω” (with me in “PARADISE”). The definition of παραδεισω (paradise) in the LXX, in Mac 7,25&26, in II Mac 5:17 and 7:12 and other places is that of a park, a garden (LXX), “an abode of the blessed dead”. It was the garden outside of the palace. Remember, John 20:17 tells us that Jesus had not yet been to "heaven" where his Father was. In speaking to Mary, he said : "... Hold me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
In the genre of early Christian decensus literature (the literature describing Jesus’ visit to the dead spirits in paradise/hades/sheol/the grave, etc. we have multiple descriptions of the place of the “righteous” dead being called “paradise”. For examples :
Speaking of the expectation that the messiah would visit the dead, it was said : “...And he shall open the gates of paradise, he shall remove the sword that has threatened since Adam, and he will grant to the saints to eat of the tree of life...... Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi ch 18 & 19:1 This text is part of the decensus literature that is referring to Jesus' descent into hades during the three days his body lay in the tomb and he went to the spirits in hades/paradise/sheol, etc. This "paradise" in the place of the dead awaiting resurrection. It is not heaven.
Of the early traditions of the “death” of Melchizedek, the angel Michael is commanded to go down and take an individuals spirit and place it in “paradise” (i.e. the place of the righteous dead). 9 “And Michael took the child on the same night on which he had come down; and he took him on his wings, and he placed him in the paradise of edom.... 11 Thus Nir ended his life. 2nd Enoch 72:9-11; Similarly, This "paradise" in the place of the dead awaiting resurrection. It is not heaven.
Similarly, when the prophet Sedrach reaches the end of his life, the Son of God was sent to take Sedrachs soul to the place of the righteous dead, called “paradise”. “And God said to his only begotten Son, “Go, take the spirit of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5
“THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”
In describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts, both correctly and incorrectly, use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. (I believe they get it correctly more often than RE posters do however…) Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from great confusion.
For example the prophet Enochs description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2En 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, nor was in "the Kingdom of God", but instead, it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
The concept of paradise describing the place of the righteous dead finds it’s way into much of the early literature. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip) The early literature describes both Jesus AND Dymas the thief in this specific place after their death.
DYMAS (THE THIEF ON THE CROSS ALSO ARRIVES IN HADES (THE PART THE EARLY TEXTS CALL PARADISE)
Speaking of these spirits in the middle, it is recorded that Dymas was given a cross and sent to “paradise” with the other spirits who were awaiting resurrection. However, this place is Not “salvation” nor is it “heaven”, but it is the place ‘in between” while the spirits of the dead await resurrection. :
The story continues, and while John the Baptist’s spirit and the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are offering their testimonies of the gospel, other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world (which is the point the sons of symeon make clear in the narrative). Though the complete Story of Dymas is incomplete, it is clear that Jesus’ Promise that he would be in this “paradise” with other spirits was fulfilled as the early Christian literature describes.
Speaking of these spirits in this world of spirits, it is recorded that Dymas was given a cross and sent to “paradise” with the other spirits who were awaiting resurrection : While they were saying this there came another, a humble man, carrying a cross on his shoulder. The holy fathers asked him: “who are you, who have the appearance of a robber, and what is the cross you carry on your shoulder?” He answered: “I was, as you say, a robber and a thief in the world, and therefore the jews took me and delivered me to the death of the cross together with our Lord Jesus Christ. When, therefore, he hung on the cross, I saw the wonders which happened and believed in him. And I appealed to him and said: ‘Lord, when you reign as king, do nor forget me.’ And immediately he said to me: ‘Truly truly, today I say to you, you shall be with me in Paradise’ [Lk 23:43]. So I came into Paradise carrying my cross, and found Michael the archangel, and said to him: ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified, has sent me here. Lead me, therefore, to the gate of Eden.’...Then the archangel said to me: ‘Wait a short while. For Adam also, the forefather of the race of men, comes with the righteous, that they also may enter in....(Ch XI> The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell)
While Dymas is in paradise, it is clear that this specific place is not heaven, nor is it salvation. IF Dymas IS with all of these individuals, then he was with the dead who were sent to be baptized in the Jordan with the rest of the dead (according to this narrative tradition).
While I think it is fine to theorize that the early christians are incorrect in their textual traditions, IF you think Jesus WAS referring to salvation, you could certainly make a case for it. However, I think the early Christian doctrines surrounding baptism as a part of the "PROCESS" of sanctification is quite logical and rational compared to most of the later theological theories I have been exposed to.
In any case Whirlingmerc, I hope your journey is insightful and wonderful.
Clear
ειδρφυφιω
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Tell me, then, when did Paul receive the Holy Spirit?
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Your welcome. If one reads without wanting to feel they already know, and really listens, it is striking: John is giving a "baptism of repentance", and when John is imprisoned, Christ then preaches a message of repentance and of the good news. This isn't a doctrine or an interpretation, but simply a direct conveyance of the text. It is ok to just hear the text, and live with it, as it is.
Last edited: