What Spiritual Goal is Served By Modest Dress?

[MysticSang'ha]

I'd just like to point out that spirituality/religion is deeply connected with culture, so I'm not sure it's fair to make this statement. The idea of religion as something entirely separate from culture is a fairly recent phenomena and a distinction that still doesn't exist in some areas. One can certainly make the connection between the American standards of modesty and Christian influences, for example.

A uniquely European Christianization, IMO, which aren't homogenous by any means within itself, either. American standards according to a Christian approach to modesty varies from region to region. How else do we understand the Pennsylvanian Dutch standards as opposed to the standards down in French-Creole New Orleans?

At any rate, I'd allow for each individual culture/religion/spirituality to speak for themselves in terms of what goals they intend to serve by standards of dress. Dress in general serves many purposes, most of which are connected to notions of identity and status.

I have no argument with this point.

 

[Father Heathen]

To not arouse passions in others. The passions are the root to much evil.

Personally, I think passion and the natural beauty of sexuality and the human body can be very conductive of spirituality rather than detracting from it.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What spiritual goal, if any, is served by modest dress? Or is there some other purpose to modest dress than to serve a spiritual goal?

I honestly don't see it as spiritual in mainstream everyday society, but if you're a priest or priestess for some deity or on temple grounds, usually modest dress has special symbolism

Its about showing yourself humble to your deity

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Personally, I think passion and the natural beauty of sexuality and the human body can be very conductive of spirituality rather than detracting from it.

Same here. As I expressed in another thread, sex is intensely powerful and sacred.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Personally, I think passion and the natural beauty of sexuality and the human body can be very conductive of spirituality rather than detracting from it.

I agree.

Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins, too, but food itself can through the sensory experience of texture, taste, smell, color, ambiance, and the company one is with make for a beautiful expression of humanity. When in the moment, a fantastic meal can be quite sacred and divine on it's own, however one interprets what is sacred.

 

[George-ananda]

Personally, I think passion and the natural beauty of sexuality and the human body can be very conductive of spirituality rather than detracting from it.

Why you Heathen

Actually I think sexual thoughts and behavior are lower (physical not spiritual) vibrations and increase the animal desires. Calming the mind, non-sexual brotherly love raises the spiritual level of the person.

Man is between the animal and the divine. If you want to move towards the divine, modesty in sexual matters is the way to go.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Why you Heathen

Actually I think sexual thoughts and behavior are lower (physical not spiritual) vibrations and increase the animal desires. Calming the mind, non-sexual brotherly love raises the spiritual level of the person.

Man is between the animal and the divine. If you want to move towards the divine, modesty in sexual matters is the way to go.

Curious why you feel that way rather than seeing sex as one of the experiences of the divine? Sex is a powerful joining of more than one. At least as powerful as brotherly love

 

[Sha'irullah]

Curious why you feel that way rather than seeing sex as one of the experiences of the divine? Sex is a powerful joining of more than one. At least as powerful as brotherly love

Yet sex is equally distracting. Sex is not the thought of god it is the thought of fleshly pleasures and is a weakness. Sex is a wonderful thing or else we would not be alive today but it should not be implemented into every deed we do and especially when one contemplates about god

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Yet sex is equally distracting. Sex is not the thought of god it is the thought of fleshly pleasures and is a weakness. Sex is a wonderful thing or else we would not be alive today but it should not be implemented into every deed we do and especially when one contemplates about god

I'm not sure why there must be this division between god and fleshly pleasures in the minds of some. Like the divine is not also in the flesh

Sex is just as much an experience of the divine as anything else

 

[Sha'irullah]

I'm not sure why there must be this division between god and fleshly pleasures in the minds of some. Like the divine is not also in the flesh

Sex is just as much an experience of the divine as anything else

What you are saying is true indeed but this does not change the fact that sex is biological and always supersedes spirituality. Although for me they can be synonymous but it doesn't count for weirdos like myself.

Sex is something that should be put under control along with any other indulgence. If you cannot have complete control over something then it means it has control over you. If you cannot think of god without sex superseding it then I am afraid to say that you are not thinking about god

 

[LuisDantas]

Everything you mentioned is further evidence of the variances in cultures definitions of what is modest. It has nothing to do with spirituality.

It is very difficult to keep purity of purpose if one is distracted by that darned irresistible attraction of the fair sex.

That such a distraction is shaped by cultural expectations does not make it any less true IMO.

 

[LuisDantas]

Personally, I think passion and the natural beauty of sexuality and the human body can be very conductive of spirituality rather than detracting from it.

No argument there. It is however just as true that such passions aren't always productive in religious contexts. It really depends on the situation.

 

[apophenia]

As George-ananda said though. Having outside temptations is entirely distracting and highly negative.

Only for the weak-minded.

Muslims for example have the women pray in the back or in a separate area because any man prostrating behind a woman is going to be concerned with other things besides praying if you understand what I am hinting at.
Hindu women as well dress modestly on occasion and in some society in India they wear loose veils as well. Catholic nuns stay veiled as well to retain their purity of image and not be idolized as sexual figures.

Sex is a distraction and just brings about the wrong feelings. One cannot have both frames of mind

Aha.

So it is just a 'frame of mind', and an attempt to 'have the right feelings'.

Sounds very contrived and conditional.

Is 'spiritual truth' so fragile and dependent on micro-management ? Is it just a 'state of mind' which can be ruined by the sight of some woman's rump ? Hardly seems worth all the bother.

I practice yoga. The classes have men and women (mostly women). The women wear tights and close-fitting tops, and we all assume all sorts of postures. I am heterosexual ( although being over 50, I am not a drooling ****brain ). From time to time I become aware that a woman is attractive, or that she is opposite me in a posture which makes her breasts more visible or whatever. These are fleeting moments. They are not a problem to me, and since I do not let them distract me into staring at the women, not a problem to the women either. We are too engaged in our practice to spend time noticing each other.

So I can only wonder about why muslims find this such a problem.

And when I wonder about that, I also note that muslim women are always covered up - yet apparently the men still can't stop obsessing about them if they are nearby ?

It seems that all this 'humility' and 'modesty' is having the effect of making muslims more self-conscious and concerned about sex than westerners.

When I see African or New Guinea tribespeople with bare-breasted women, this becomes even more apparent. Those people are not having constant problems with rape, adultery, incest etc.

It seems the more people try to 'have the right feelings', the more neurotic they become.

 

[apophenia]

Another thought - is it possible that the 'modesty' and covering up are actually popular because they increase sexual interest ?

Just a thought.

 

[ratikala]

one aspect not mentioned so far is the efect on the mind of the wearer , a woman knows what she is doing when she is getting dressed or when she is choosing an outfit , she is the one who is being tempted into thoughts of do I want to look sexy ? do I want to provoke attention , do I want to put my self forward as as an object of desire ?

the question is whether a woman wants to dress beautifully , or whether she wants to be the center of attention .

there is no harm in derssing beautifully , choosing colours , shapes and paterns that one finds attractive , but there is harm to oneself in obsessing about ones apperance and especialy in the idea of courting attraction .

in my veiw if a woman has respect for herself she will dress with a degree of modesty , and will dress appropriately acording to the situation .

 

[ratikala]

Originally Posted by Father Heathen
Personally, I think passion and the natural beauty of sexuality and the human body can be very conductive of spirituality rather than detracting from it.

Why you Heathen

Actually I think sexual thoughts and behavior are lower (physical not spiritual) vibrations and increase the animal desires. Calming the mind, non-sexual brotherly love raises the spiritual level of the person.

Man is between the animal and the divine. If you want to move towards the divine, modesty in sexual matters is the way to go.

frubals to george :namaste

 

[Sha'irullah]

Only for the weak-minded.

edit

Aha.

So it is just a 'frame of mind', and an attempt to 'have the right feelings'.

Sounds very contrived and conditional.

Is 'spiritual truth' so fragile and dependent on micro-management ? Is it just a 'state of mind' which can be ruined by the sight of some woman's rump ? Hardly seems worth all the bother.

We are not talking about spiritual truth but about religious practices and spiritual focus. One cannot focus on god when doing a religious obligation while thinking about a woman or even man.
If you wish to perform a task why would you do it and not be aware of what you are doing?

I practice yoga. The classes have men and women (mostly women). The women wear tights and close-fitting tops, and we all assume all sorts of postures. I am heterosexual ( although being over 50, I am not a drooling ****brain ). From time to time I become aware that a woman is attractive, or that she is opposite me in a posture which makes her breasts more visible or whatever. These are fleeting moments. They are not a problem to me, and since I do not let them distract me into staring at the women, not a problem to the women either. We are too engaged in our practice to spend time noticing each other.

I would not consider yoga overly religious nor requiring any sort of spiritual or mental concentration and I myself have done it.

So I can only wonder about why muslims find this such a problem.

And when I wonder about that, I also note that muslim women are always covered up - yet apparently the men still can't stop obsessing about them if they are nearby ?

It seems that all this 'humility' and 'modesty' is having the effect of making muslims more self-conscious and concerned about sex than westerners.

When I see African or New Guinea tribespeople with bare-breasted women, this becomes even more apparent. Those people are not having constant problems with rape, adultery, incest etc.

It seems the more people try to 'have the right feelings', the more neurotic they become.

I am not a Muslim and I do not justify what Muslims do, or at least not always.
Again I am only referring to religious practices that require the lack of distraction, praying in a mosque is one thing but what you afterwards is another and irrelevant tot he discussion. If one is not doing an obligatory or even optional act of spiritual focus then modesty is irrelevant.

 

[apophenia]

I would ironically place yourself in that category :biglaugh:

Why ?

I would not consider yoga overly religious nor requiring any sort of spiritual or mental concentration and I myself have done it.

No, Sterling, you haven't 'done it'.

You may have done some exercises or stretching, but you clearly have no idea what yoga means. If what you did required 'no sort of spiritual or mental concentration', it was not yoga.

On the other hand, anything which is practiced with 'some sort of spiritual or mental concentration' is a form of yoga. To understand this, you would need to study yoga - I suggest Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Doing asanas (postures) is a means of practicing yoga. A specific method. Without 'some sort of spiritual or mental concentration' it is merely physical exercise - even you could probably manage it. :biglaugh:

I am not a Muslim and I do not justify what Muslims do, or at least not always.
Again I am only referring to religious practices that require the lack of distraction, praying in a mosque is one thing but what you afterwards is another and irrelevant tot he discussion. If one is not doing an obligatory or even optional act of spiritual focus then modesty is irrelevant.

The 'lack of distraction' which is of any value is a matter of inner discipline, not outer circumstances.

If a man can't pray when he can see the shape of a woman's butt, then he is simply undisciplined internally. Weak. Juvenile.

Such a man is possibly incapable of worthwhile prayer. If his intention and focus is so lame that a glimpse of mammary or gluteus maximus can dissolve it, then he is really a helpless child.

 

[Falvlun]

I think it is telling that concepts of modesty, and particularly their most strictest forms, tend to only pertain to women.

 

[Falvlun]

Another thought - is it possible that the 'modesty' and covering up are actually popular because they increase sexual interest ?

Just a thought.

This is true too. Well, the part about covering up increasing or simply shifting sexual interest; I wouldn't go so far to say that is the intentional purpose.

I mean, ankles used to be sexy. There's nothing sexy about an ankle... until you cover it up and tell people they can't see it because it is too sexy.

Reminds me of this thread: Damn those sexy eyes!