What Spiritual Goal is Served By Modest Dress?

[Father Heathen]

Why you Heathen

Actually I think sexual thoughts and behavior are lower (physical not spiritual) vibrations and increase the animal desires. Calming the mind, non-sexual brotherly love raises the spiritual level of the person.

Man is between the animal and the divine. If you want to move towards the divine, modesty in sexual matters is the way to go.

I fail to see how prudish insecurities and squeemishes, along with an arbitrary disavowalment and unhealthy repression of nature, makes one closer to the divine, when nature and the divine are intertwined, if not one and the same.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think it is telling that concepts of modesty, and particularly their most strictest forms, tend to only pertain to women.

But of course. Didn't you know that women don't get "distracted" by other people too? And didn't you know that homosexuals don't exist who might get "distracted" by the same sex while partaking in a religious ritual of some type?

We have to assume that only men get horny from a visual and that men are never the object of desire.

Which is an assumption, btw, that is perpetuated by culture. Not biology.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namaste

I think it is telling that concepts of modesty, and particularly their most strictest forms, tend to only pertain to women.

it seems that the idea of modesty in most peoples minds relates only to dress ?

prehaps some might like to concider modesty in speach or action .

many men would be wise to give a little reflection to this aspect of modesty .

Quote: Sterling Archer
I would not consider yoga overly religious nor requiring any sort of spiritual or mental concentration and I myself have done it.

sadly this is a perfect example of the ' I' thinking too highly of itself and its oppinion
, a little modesty might prevent many , ..either male or female ...from falling in to this grand trap of ahamkara .

the whole purpose of yoga which ever form one practices is to link ones mind with god , therefore the more time we spend focusing on ourselves and our apperance the less time we have for god , it dosent matter either way a woman might focus on her physical apperance and how she appears to others and all to often a man focuses on how he appears to others in a slightly different way , .... how many men spend too much time worrying about their apperance through their posessions and status , and how many women are foolishly distracted by that ?

 

[Secret Chief]

Is it considered wrong to dress modestly? (given any culture and time).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Is it considered wrong to dress modestly? (given any culture and time).

Nah. Modesty by choice is fine. Modesty by threat, coercion, harassment, or shame I think is wrong.

 

[Falvlun]

But of course. Didn't you know that women don't get "distracted" by other people too? And didn't you know that homosexuals don't exist who might get "distracted" by the same sex while partaking in a religious ritual of some type?

We have to assume that only men get horny from a visual and that men are never the object of desire.

Which is an assumption, btw, that is perpetuated by culture. Not biology.

Exactly. Boys, you better believe I'm checkin' you out.

And it is always fascinating that the answer to "Men find females attractive and that distracts them/causes them to lose control/makes them less spirtually pure" isn't to train men on how to focus, or control their urges, or to limit themselves, but to limit women.

Imagine if that's how every group responded to temptations. It would be like vegetarians banning meat eating everywhere lest they be tempted to taste a burger.

 

[Secret Chief]

OK. So, you are not an X, but you are invited to a wedding you would like to attend, to be held in an X building. It is considered appropriate by Xers to wear ABC and not DEF in an X building.

What does one do?

 

[Falvlun]

OK. So, you are not an X, but you are invited to a wedding you would like to attend, to be held in an X building. It is considered appropriate by Xers to wear ABC and not DEF in an X building.

What does one do?

I would wear what was appropriate and respectful. If I felt it was derogatory or against my beliefs-- like wearing a burka-- then I wouldn't go to the wedding.

It's one thing to choose to respect other people's cultures and another thing for it to be forced upon you. We can also argue whether a particular culture's expectations are reasonable or not.

 

[Secret Chief]

Sure, I tried to create a scenario that did not involve force.

We all need to comply to society's norms. My shirt at the office is not a personal choice, I comply to avoid sanctioning and perhaps even loss of income. Am I being forced?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Sure, I tried to create a scenario that did not involve force.

We all need to comply to society's norms. My shirt at the office is not a personal choice, I comply to avoid sanctioning and perhaps even loss of income. Am I being forced?

No. You are complying only to society's norms. But that wasn't the point of the OP.

This only reinforces my argument that modest dress is a social construct. It has nothing to do with spirituality. Modest dress is defined according to the culture's definition of it. The question is what spiritual goal is served by modest dress?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I fail to see how prudish insecurities and squeemishes, along with an arbitrary disavowalment and unhealthy repression of nature, makes one closer to the divine, when nature and the divine are intertwined, if not one and the same.

This ^^^

 

[Breathe]

This is true too. Well, the part about covering up increasing or simply shifting sexual interest; I wouldn't go so far to say that is the intentional purpose.

I mean, ankles used to be sexy. There's nothing sexy about an ankle... until you cover it up and tell people they can't see it because it is too sexy.

Reminds me of this thread: Damn those sexy eyes!

I totally agree.

Excluding, of course, people with fetishes.
For example, foot fetishes. I don't understand. Feet look ugly to me, but some people love them... the idea of which freaks me out.

Sometimes, though, there are people with slightly unusual fetishes, like hijabs... I wonder what the protocol should be for someone who finds modest clothing sexually appealling?

 

[Debater Slayer]

What spiritual goal, if any, is served by modest dress? Or is there some other purpose to modest dress than to serve a spiritual goal?

I think that "spiritual benefit" is subjective, as is "modest dress." So whether or not dress that is perceived to be modest serves any spiritual goal would vary from culture to culture and from person to person.

From what I've seen, many Muslims see benefit in dress they perceive to be modest in that it supposedly decreases the chances of undesirable temptation and/or lust, for example. Others dress modestly because of belief that it is mandatory in Islam, regardless of whether or not they think it is necessary to avoid temptation, lust, etc.

Also, I know Christians who wear hijab mainly because of social considerations and not out of religious conviction. Like any dress code that is common in any given society, wearing hijab may or may not be due to religious belief in its having spiritual value, which in my opinion underlines the cultural influence in determining what is or isn't "modest" dress code.

It seems to me that cultural traditions and already existing taboos play a part in at least some notions of what constitutes "modest" dress. I'd go so far as to say that said traditions are sometimes held and preserved so fastidiously that they come to be seen as sacred or spiritual in nature, even if they weren't initially viewed as such. That's not to say that is necessarily a negative thing; I don't think there's any problem if people choose to wear a certain type of dress. It's only when it's forced on them that it becomes an issue.

One thing I've noticed is that a seemingly major criterion to determine whether someone is dressing modestly or immodestly across several cultures appears to be what people generally expect women to wear so they would conform to prescribed notions about how they should act or handle themselves in public. If a woman wears something that would be out of keeping with one of those notions, she's considered "slutty," "indecent," etc. From my experience, people who care so much about how women dress in public don't seem to pay nearly as much attention to men's dress codes. There are still some socially unacceptable dress codes for men that would be seen as "inappropriate," of course, but those don't seem to be focused on as much as women's.

So, another aspect that I think influences some perceptions about the spiritual value of modesty is how the latter is supposedly tied to sexual temptations. If someone views sexual desire as a bad thing or as something to avoid, then they may try to curb that through different methods, including close observance of "modesty," "appropriateness," etc.

Personally, I think it's arbitrary and unnecessary to draw any kind of causal relationship between dress code and sexual desire; it seems to me that no amount of clothing in the world would compensate for poor self-control or lack of respect for other people's boundaries.

 

[LuisDantas]

Nah. Modesty by choice is fine. Modesty by threat, coercion, harassment, or shame I think is wrong.

Most certainly. Even the naming of concealing clothing as "modest" is IMO an interesting and suspect insinuation, for I don't think modesty is a particularly frequent motivation for hiding one's body. Discouraging unwanted attention seems much significant from my perspective.

Is it wrong to impose on women (or for that matter, anyone) rules of dress that they do not really want? I suppose it is. The means used to impose those rules often are.

All I am saying is that I also have no doubt whatsoever that men can and often do have a hard time dealing with the sight of the female body. Heck, even the eyes can be a challenge sometimes. A marvelous challenge for sure, but still.

I feel that it all comes down to how important the need for avoiding attraction is perceived as being. It may very well be a generally over-valued need, or even just an hypocritically misrepresented one; there is certainly no shortage of influential male figures that perpetuate the perception of that need while symultaneously betraying it.

I am all for questioning and reevaluating that perception, if for no other reason because there is much to be said abou the inspirational joy of simply dealing with the fair sex. It can be done respectfully yet, for lack of a better way of describing it, in a very conscious way. But I also fully expect lots of people to simply feel disoriented and even troubled by that exercise; it is simply not how they were taught it should work.

 

[Secret Chief]

How you dress in a church or office are concerned with norms, yes I see. I think the spiritual goal notion and modesty are concerned about restraint and non distraction rather than a goal per se.

Personally, I don't go a bundle on 'spiritual' so I can only surmise.

 

[Falvlun]

If we take "modesty" to mean something more akin to "humility", then I could see the benefit to some spiritual applications. Pride and extravagance tend to be things avoided in spiritual quests.

 

[Aquitaine]

Sometimes, though, there are people with slightly unusual fetishes, like hijabs... I wonder what the protocol should be for someone who finds modest clothing sexually appealling?

Now wouldn't that be a funny situation! I can imagine the Saudi Clerics:

"We need another Hijab to cover the current Hijab, to preserve the woman's modesty from those with a Hijab fetish! Oh wait...... "

"The more we cover them, the more aroused the fetish men get!!!!1 "

:angel2:

 

[Sha'irullah]

Why ?

More of a joke but I am just going out on a limb and will assume you are a asexual person right?

No, Sterling, you haven't 'done it'.

You may have done some exercises or stretching, but you clearly have no idea what yoga means. If what you did required 'no sort of spiritual or mental concentration', it was not yoga.

This only proves your own ignorance. Having been a Hindu for quite some time I have actually done yoga and both the Westernized idea of "yoga" and neither requires any massive amount of concentration.
But such things are easy for me and with any amount of will power one can avoid sexual stimulation. Just because you deny this does not mean it will not apply for others.

On the other hand, anything which is practiced with 'some sort of spiritual or mental concentration' is a form of yoga. To understand this, you would need to study yoga - I suggest Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Doing asanas (postures) is a means of practicing yoga. A specific method. Without 'some sort of spiritual or mental concentration' it is merely physical exercise - even you could probably manage it. :biglaugh:

Now this is almost insulting considering by practice of it in the past. If you think you are impressing me then you are not.

The 'lack of distraction' which is of any value is a matter of inner discipline, not outer circumstances.

If a man can't pray when he can see the shape of a woman's butt, then he is simply undisciplined internally. Weak. Juvenile.

Such a man is possibly incapable of worthwhile prayer. If his intention and focus is so lame that a glimpse of mammary or gluteus maximus can dissolve it, then he is really a helpless child.

No he is not a helpless child, he is acting upon his biological functions. But I assume you deny the knowledge of human biology so this may not be of any interest to you.
Not all people or cultures hold the same concept of celibacy or sexual discipline that you or yet alone I have.
Arabs for example are some of the most sexually driver people I know. They have heat seeking missiles in their thawbs practically. Indians have taught strict chastity in their native religion and this creates a very different environment.
Americans for example are overly riddled with sexualization of everything and in my case it is just more evident then it would be to you.
If one must use modesty to do a religious task then so be it as it makes perfect since.

Would you wish to see nuns in short skirts? Priest in speedos? A congregation all donning g-strings and tight spandex?
It is people's inherent nature to seek and desire sexuality.

 

[ratikala]

If we take "modesty" to mean something more akin to "humility", then I could see the benefit to some spiritual applications. Pride and extravagance tend to be things avoided in spiritual quests.

at last some one gets it , .... "humility"......:namaste

it is not nececarily for the sake of preventing lust in others , it can be for the sake of generating the right attitude in oneself .

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I tend to see imposing modest dress on people because one is otherwise distracted by their sexuality as a cop out. If one is distracted by someone's dress or lack of dress, then one should take responsibility for one's feelings and deal with them, rather than ask someone else to deal with them by dressing differently.

Funny... when you said "modest dress", my mind went to austentatious displays of wealth. I didn't even think of sexuality until I saw replies that spoke to that aspect of modesty.