Chastity and humility.
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What Spiritual Goal is Served By Modest Dress?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
ratikala
Istha gosthi
yes , I live in wales one of the least populated areas of the uk ,
and my reason for living in one of the least afluent areas of the country is that I prefer to live a simple life as far from the ups and downs of the material world as is humanly possible .but the countryside is beautifull and condusive to meditation .
I have no objections
I am paying a morgage so sadly I do not own it yet , when I have finaly paid for it I intend to set it up a trust to run a small retreat center .
however , it is not a home it is an ashram .
I have my work clothes suitibly tidy but deffinatly not flash 99% handme downs and charity sale finds , and a few things that I make my self , I spin knit and sew , around here you can find an endless suply of unwanted fleece , waste not want not , so I spin and knit (it is amazing what you can create from a sack full of unwanted fleece)and I make a lot of things from recycled materials , second hand gifts and salvaged .
then I have my gardening clothes good servicable handme downs
then I have a large basket full of saris , these are devotional clothing so are all bought new or recived as gifts allthough I have had many of them for years and have simple but traditional taste , cotton .( one canot serve in second hand clothes it is not concidered appropriate)
yes I work , (I do not belive in taking state handouts )it would be a little difficult to live on alms here , at one time I was very close to taking ordination and moving in to a buddhist temple , many of the ordained sangha there took state benifits so that they had more time for their monkly activities, I felt this to be imoral because in truth they were not looking for work , ....so I now follow the hindu ashrama system allthough initiated I am 'grihastha' (a householder) it is my dharma (duty) to be self supporting and to build the wherewithall and position for later renunciation .
yes , I share a car , a modest second hand one , it gets us by
I do not have half of the material comforts that most would expect but I am not fussed about that , the house is damp and I canot afford to repair it yet , but never mind I am working on that , we just fix the most desperately broken bits and pray for good weather
.... most of our things are second hand , but we have this amazing thing here called freecycle , if you desperately need some thing you can find an unwanted gift ...our fridge died of old age so we found a hand me down , ... great , give it a good scrub , and we have pots and pans and a bed , so yes , I call that pretty comfortable why would I be offended ?
it is all down to ones perception , when a buddhists fridge blows up they just laugh and say ....well ther you go that's 'imperminance'....no 'ups' no 'downs' , that is just the way it is ....' imperminance' ...ok I have to live with the material world because I am at present in this material body , it needs clothes and food but what is the point in getting too hung up about it .
from the dharmic perspective the purpose of life is for some sort of spiritual realisation and the whole idea is not to get too caught up in the material side of life , one does what needs to be done and utilises ones time in some more fruitfull way than to live a life of self indulgence .
there is a beautifull verse in the bhagavad gita ,
one who is satisfied with the gain which comes of its own accord , who is free from duality , free from envy , who is steady in in sucess and failure , is never entangled although performing actions .
....ch 4 ... v 22 ...
simmilarly to a buddhist the aim is equanimity , freedom from elation , freedom from depression , no ups no downs , if one understands the material world for what it is one works with it and within it without unnececary attatchment to it , gratitude prehaps but not attatchment .
(attatchment leads to grasping , attatchment , anger , ignorance , .... 'the three poisons' .)
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Yes
Not necessarily evil (in the sense you're intending it here) if it does not harm others (but watch out for hedonistic sexual behavior if you think consenting adults are never harmed).
Reading between the lines, I'm guessing you're thinking some of us are prudish for prudishness's sake. Eastern religions teach that detaching from physical/material drives and desires is really the road to mental peace and contentment. So really this detachment is for our own happiness (not just for prudishness's sake).
Buddha preached the middle path between asceticism and hedonism. But by changing modern standards his middle path would probably be quite on the conservative side to us.
yes , I live in wales one of the least populated areas of the uk ,
and my reason for living in one of the least afluent areas of the country is that I prefer to live a simple life as far from the ups and downs of the material world as is humanly possible .but the countryside is beautifull and condusive to meditation .
I have no objections
I am paying a morgage so sadly I do not own it yet , when I have finaly paid for it I intend to set it up a trust to run a small retreat center .
however , it is not a home it is an ashram .
I have my work clothes suitibly tidy but deffinatly not flash 99% handme downs and charity sale finds , and a few things that I make my self , I spin knit and sew , around here you can find an endless suply of unwanted fleece , waste not want not , so I spin and knit (it is amazing what you can create from a sack full of unwanted fleece)and I make a lot of things from recycled materials , second hand gifts and salvaged .
then I have my gardening clothes good servicable handme downs
then I have a large basket full of saris , these are devotional clothing so are all bought new or recived as gifts allthough I have had many of them for years and have simple but traditional taste , cotton .( one canot serve in second hand clothes it is not concidered appropriate)
yes I work , (I do not belive in taking state handouts )it would be a little difficult to live on alms here , at one time I was very close to taking ordination and moving in to a buddhist temple , many of the ordained sangha there took state benifits so that they had more time for their monkly activities, I felt this to be imoral because in truth they were not looking for work , ....so I now follow the hindu ashrama system allthough initiated I am 'grihastha' (a householder) it is my dharma (duty) to be self supporting and to build the wherewithall and position for later renunciation .
yes , I share a car , a modest second hand one , it gets us by
I do not have half of the material comforts that most would expect but I am not fussed about that , the house is damp and I canot afford to repair it yet , but never mind I am working on that , we just fix the most desperately broken bits and pray for good weather
why would I be offended ?
it is all down to ones perception , when a buddhists fridge blows up they just laugh and say ....well ther you go that's 'imperminance'....no 'ups' no 'downs' , that is just the way it is ....' imperminance' ...ok I have to live with the material world because I am at present in this material body , it needs clothes and food but what is the point in getting too hung up about it .
from the dharmic perspective the purpose of life is for some sort of spiritual realisation and the whole idea is not to get too caught up in the material side of life , one does what needs to be done and utilises ones time in some more fruitfull way than to live a life of self indulgence .
there is a beautifull verse in the bhagavad gita ,
one who is satisfied with the gain which comes of its own accord , who is free from duality , free from envy , who is steady in in sucess and failure , is never entangled although performing actions .
....ch 4 ... v 22 ...
simmilarly to a buddhist the aim is equanimity , freedom from elation , freedom from depression , no ups no downs , if one understands the material world for what it is one works with it and within it without unnececary attatchment to it , gratitude prehaps but not attatchment .
(attatchment leads to grasping , attatchment , anger , ignorance , .... 'the three poisons' .)
Geez Ratikala, you practice what you preach amazingly well. I'm impressed.
I also follow Eastern religions but I'm a lazy (take the easy path) materialist compared to you.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
ratikala
Istha gosthi
Thankyou for the time that you took to post your detailed answers.
Thankyou again...
so what does Old badger think about ..''What Spiritual Goal is Served By Modest Dress?''
it would be interesting to understand how a man veiws his own modesty ? if indeed he conciders it at all ?your thoughts ?namaskaram :namaste
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Thanks for your replies....
OK......
OK..... I think that your guess is about right....
I would find it difficult to accept if a person could be raised to emotional 'highs' through, say, the most wonderful music, the perfect prose, a beautiful picture, etc but not within love....... in fact I believe that all the arts designed to trigger the senses and emotions can only fall beneath the condition of making love to the most special person in (our) the world.
I do accept that sex can cause damage.......but..... vanGogh was probably driven to madness over his art, many musicians were quite crazy, maybe Mozart, or the deafened Beethoven?
Food can kill, yet food is beautiful. You get the drift, I am sure? But I diod not read that advert-pictures of plates of food are 'wrong', or free music channels, etc.
So to pick out human beauty as a higher risk, is in itself unhealthy.
'Honi soit qui mali pense' rings loud for all that damages mindsets.
There is no more beautiful and spiritual act in life than watching the loved one in ecstasy.
Yes.......
I guess I do believe that ........ well...... I am always slightly saddened when I hear of 'spirituals' who live on a distant hillside, believing that their life is basic, when in fact they are privileged. Surely the place to find the 'spirits' is upon the city's back-street pavements, deep in the turmoil of humanity, within the squalor.
Let's not pick upon scanty dress, and call it immodest. It's all in the individual mindset?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
dressing in a respectful way shows a respect for God and a respect for ones-self...self respect is an important spiritual quality because we have to see ourselves as made in the image of God. When we learn to appreciate that about ourselves, we demonstrate a deeper level of respect for ourselves by dressing our bodies modestly so as not to draw the wrong kind of attention to them.
when we dont respect ourselves we tend to use our bodies in a way to attract attention to ourselves....usually sexual attention. Trying to appear sexual is an animalistic practice and is totally opposed to viewing ourselves as 'images' of God. Animals, by nature, try to attract a mate by displaying themselves so as to appear attractive. Girl birds will more readily mate with a brightly coloured bird...other animals use other physical traits to attract one another. Its purely a sexual thing... thats why its important for humans to avoid doing so. We are more then animals, we have been endowed with Godly qualities and when we show respect for ourselves we are really respecting our Creator.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
i wouldnt call it that
I personally think that sex is merely a means to reproduce... God made it pleasurable, but he didnt make us to be soley on the pursuit of physical arousal and pleasure at all times. We are not 'sexual' beings as some people like to think. We are 'spiritual' beings who just happen to reproduce sexually and it just happens to be enjoyable.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi again....... 'What spiritual goal is Served (??) by Modest Dress?'
I do not believe that any spiritual goal is served by, or aided by, or benefited by..... modest dress, or any dress. Dress is part of materialism, and I think that those who place a greater value upon it could possibly have a lesser spirit.
I do have a bucket (!) of underclothes, 2 jeans, 4 t-shirts, a wedding suit (my wife won't throw it out!), a funeral jacket, black trousers, a warm coat and a shirt (somewhere), with two pairs of shoes, and that's that. My wading-boots don't count!
I do feel the cold, don't want to be detained, do like my pockets (useful) but really don't care what other people wear. My wife only wears jeans and t-shirt, although she does have more clothes than me.
And so........ clothes are part of the material world........ mammon. Fashion is a crazy allusion that keeps industries, incomes, profit, returns and stars high. Dress is about signalling power, prestige, fashion, sexuality, sophistication and
of course keeping warm
D).The spirit world needs none of it's affectation, hypocrisy or false modesty. But since our world is material, and since we have made, voted for or succumbed to laws, and because (like me) we get cold, we dress! :yes:
I have always thought that a woman in a one-piece bathing costume is sexier than in a bikini, (for example), and so, for me....... dress is a 'turn-on'. Yet when I bath with my wife, it is a platonic event of deep love between us. Ergo...... clothes = sexy..... a reversed opinion..... :yes:
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
I concur with Heather that it is more cultural/social than spiritual. At some point in ancient history the veil was considered an article of clothing worn by noble women in Mesopotamia. In fact common women were forbidden from wearing it.
Many people are not going to like what I am about to say. But I consider plenty of cases of 'modest dressing' to be a sign of spiritual weakness, self righteousness, authoritarian mindset, and poor self esteem. Many women wear restrictive clothing because they are culturally pushed to that corner, even if subconsciously. I don't believe that true spirituality is concerned with such problems, but culture is.
Trust me, seeing a woman's hair is not what's going to turn me into a testosterone driven male fiend.
The fact that there are men and women that cannot appreciate the natural beauty of the human physique without psychological hang ups is spiritual depravity. Therapy is a much better answer to that, than covering our natural image.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
As Heather said, you are talking about social norms, but I see nothing about spiritual merit.
The organization I work for demands that I show up for work wearing high trekking/working shoes, long pants, and Antiquities Authority shirt, in addition I have to be clean shaven. Most of these standards serve practical and aesthetic reasons such as avoiding injury or having formal appearance when talking to contractors, but they serve no spiritual or moral purpose.
This is dramatically different from living in a cultural environment which expects you to be covered (to whichever degree) at all times in which you are around members of the opposite sex, whether you are working or going for the most common errands. What spiritual purpose does covering your face when shopping for groceries serve?
Secret Chief
Vetted Member
As I said, I don't go a bundle on the notion of spiritual, I was saying all dress involves degrees of acceding to expected norms.
For some reason i'm having extreme difficulty formulating my thoughts on this. I hope the following makes sense. To me, what is and what is not spiritual depends on what the person defines as spiritual. As such, i'm sure modesty serves spiritual purposes for some people. Much like what we define as moral, and what we define as our goals in life, the spiritual aspects we label as such are often telling of us as humans and are detrimental to how we act and how we experience life. The deciding factors however of whether or not the spirituality defined in question is beneficial could be things like:
1) Whether or not we're aware of the actual reasons that are making us embrace the idea(s) in question.
2) Whether or not it is achieving of the purpose for acting in that particular way.
2) What does engaging in this behavior entail, in general.
Factors one and two have more to do with the possible benefit or harm to the individual, and factor 3 has more to do with the same in regards to society in general. The factors need not all be met for the practice to be considered beneficial and need not all be absent for it to be considered non-beneficial or harmful, rather it's different levels. The results would be varying from "Excellent spiritual practice" to "Destructive spiritual practice" with results in between.
To give some examples, someone may act/dress in modesty, project and feel humility, due to insecurity, and would in fact define spirituality or part of it to be found in humility to cater for their insecurity. This far, i would consider it partially negative, because i think it's more beneficial for the person to confront their insecurities, especially general and seemingly crucial ones such as this. I wouldn't consider that person's spirituality beneficial, rather i would consider it a form of escapism. Let's add that the person is also not aware of their insecurity being the source, this makes the spiritual practice even more negative. As there's a considerably reduced level of experiencing of life. The person could then use much more introspection.
The process of deciding whether or not a spiritual practice is beneficial seems quite difficult to me, and there are possible exceptions to any approach i can come up with, but this is my general approach to the matter.
1) Whether or not we're aware of the actual reasons that are making us embrace the idea(s) in question.
2) Whether or not it is achieving of the purpose for acting in that particular way.
2) What does engaging in this behavior entail, in general.
Factors one and two have more to do with the possible benefit or harm to the individual, and factor 3 has more to do with the same in regards to society in general. The factors need not all be met for the practice to be considered beneficial and need not all be absent for it to be considered non-beneficial or harmful, rather it's different levels. The results would be varying from "Excellent spiritual practice" to "Destructive spiritual practice" with results in between.
To give some examples, someone may act/dress in modesty, project and feel humility, due to insecurity, and would in fact define spirituality or part of it to be found in humility to cater for their insecurity. This far, i would consider it partially negative, because i think it's more beneficial for the person to confront their insecurities, especially general and seemingly crucial ones such as this. I wouldn't consider that person's spirituality beneficial, rather i would consider it a form of escapism. Let's add that the person is also not aware of their insecurity being the source, this makes the spiritual practice even more negative. As there's a considerably reduced level of experiencing of life. The person could then use much more introspection.
The process of deciding whether or not a spiritual practice is beneficial seems quite difficult to me, and there are possible exceptions to any approach i can come up with, but this is my general approach to the matter.
dazz707
dazz707
Sometimes as an experiment I think it would be good to dress very modestly. And as another experiment I think it would be good to dress very flamboyantly. I think these things can help shake out the cobwebs of any self-image you might have. E.G. one day, wear nothing but plain hand-me-downs, so that you have had no say in your appearance. Then another day, wear a hawaiian shirt with a pink afro and angular gothic boots. Ultimately, I think the spiritual goal of modest dress is in undermining the ego, starving it of attention from others. But as others have said, if you do this for too long you might get used to it, and become afraid to have fun by looking silly now and then. I think there should also be a spiritual goal in dressing very silly, to help shed the fear of public opinion.
I believe that God dresses in every form, from humble ants to peacocks and platypuses!
I believe that God dresses in every form, from humble ants to peacocks and platypuses!
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Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
This. :clap
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
If we were created in god's image, then the very nature that he has given us is also his, correct? To treat the beauty of our body and of our sexuality, god's creations, as "dirty" is actually disrespectful to him. Another great gift god as bestowed upon us is the ability to reason, therefore, because much of what you consider "godly qualities" actually goes against sound reason, they are in fact not of god.
I find it interesting that when asked an open-ended question about modesty, just about everyone in this thread responded in terms of sexuality alone. AFAICT, nobody spoke to another major aspect of modesty: ostentatiousness and displays of wealth.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Incorrect. It is a mental/emotional high. Music, meditation, art, dance, sex, etc. can indeed aide in achieving a spiritual state of mind. I realize that you find the notion that your rigid and arbitrary path is not a prerequisite to be disheartening.
As a agnostic deist, I believe that, if there is an entity or force that fits the descriptor of "god", it would encompass and be intertwined with, if not completely embody, nature and the universe. It's not separate and beyond, but within and among. Also, the human mind is immensely complex and still largely a mystery. There is also quantum physics ****. There is much to be explored in that regard.