What the...Egypt female circumcision

[Madhuri]

So I'm in utter shock right. I have just read a statistic on Wikipedia that says 97% of women in Egypt are circumcised (types 1 and 2). This type of circumcision is described as follows:

Types I and II
Type I is the removal of the clitoral hood (Type Ia); or the partial or total removal of the clitoris, a clitoridectomy (Type Ib).[2] Type II, often called excision, is partial or total removal of the clitoris and the inner labia or outer labia. Type IIa is removal of the inner labia only; Type IIb, partial or total removal of the clitoris and the inner labia; and Type IIc, partial or total removal of the clitoris, and the inner and outer labia.[2]

I knew that some backward countries with lack of access to education conducted this sort of horrible mutilation, but I had no idea that a place like Egypt would allow such a thing to happen.

Since we have some Egypt members on this forum, please let me know if this is even true for starters. And if it is, WHY????

 

[Mathematician]

Those statistics are probably true. Quite a few African countries have a majority of females being circumcised at birth.

It's a myth that female circumcision destroys sexual functions such as the ability to orgasm and receive pleasure. In the countries where it's prevalent it's not seen any differently than male circumcision, because it isn't. Certain female circumcision is even less severe than the male equivalent.

In other words, I think Western prejudice is showing over this outrage.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Those statistics are probably true. Quite a few African countries have a majority of females being circumcised at birth.

It's a myth that female circumcision destroys sexual functions such as the ability to orgasm and receive pleasure. In the countries where it's prevalent it's not seen any differently than male circumcision, because it isn't. Type II circumcision is even less severe.

Source?

 

[Desert Snake]

So I'm in utter shock right. I have just read a statistic on Wikipedia that says 97% of women in Egypt are circumcised (types 1 and 2). This type of circumcision is described as follows:

Types I and II
Type I is the removal of the clitoral hood (Type Ia); or the partial or total removal of the clitoris, a clitoridectomy (Type Ib).[2] Type II, often called excision, is partial or total removal of the clitoris and the inner labia or outer labia. Type IIa is removal of the inner labia only; Type IIb, partial or total removal of the clitoris and the inner labia; and Type IIc, partial or total removal of the clitoris, and the inner and outer labia.[2]

I knew that some backward countries with lack of access to education conducted this sort of horrible mutilation, but I had no idea that a place like Egypt would allow such a thing to happen.

Since we have some Egypt members on this forum, please let me know if this is even true for starters. And if it is, WHY????

Quite a few males are circumcised routinely, mainly in Muslim or Jewish areas, and a fair amount of American non-religious circumcision for males occurs all the time... I'm not really sure what you're shocked.. about??

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Quite a few males are circumcised routinely, mainly in Muslim or Jewish areas, and a fair amount of American non-religious circumcision for males occurs all the time... I'm not really sure what you're shocked.. about??

I'm not shocked, but I am disgusted by the prevalence of FGM.

And no, female and male circumcision is not the same. I'm still looking for any evidence from the detractors that the two are equal in it's impact on the safety, the recovery, and the cultural implications.

 

[Mathematician]

For a cultural perspective: A New Debate on Female Circumcision - NYTimes.com

For a scientific: http://www.intact-network.net/intac...h and Sexuality An Update on the Evidence.pdf

Concerning sexuality, most of the existing studies suffer from conceptual and methodological shortcomings, and the available evidence does not support the hypotheses that circumcision destroys sexual function.

 

[Madhuri]

How can male circumcision be worse? They get a bit of foreskin chopped off whereas women might get their entire outer genitals removed and most areas sewn over. There is a great deal more mutilation involved in female circumcision.

 

[gnomon]

So I'm in utter shock right. I have just read a statistic on Wikipedia that says 97% of women in Egypt are circumcised (types 1 and 2). This type of circumcision is described as follows:

Types I and II
Type I is the removal of the clitoral hood (Type Ia); or the partial or total removal of the clitoris, a clitoridectomy (Type Ib).[2] Type II, often called excision, is partial or total removal of the clitoris and the inner labia or outer labia. Type IIa is removal of the inner labia only; Type IIb, partial or total removal of the clitoris and the inner labia; and Type IIc, partial or total removal of the clitoris, and the inner and outer labia.[2]

I knew that some backward countries with lack of access to education conducted this sort of horrible mutilation, but I had no idea that a place like Egypt would allow such a thing to happen.

Since we have some Egypt members on this forum, please let me know if this is even true for starters. And if it is, WHY????

I seriously doubt that statistic. But it may be high. The proponents of FGM in Egypt have pushed it by claiming it has a status in Islam over the objections of Islamic scholars and imams. I had heard about Egypt as one of those nations where it was a problem along with several other nations in Africa primarily in the North, Central and West Africa.

Quite a few males are circumcised routinely, mainly in Muslim or Jewish areas, and a fair amount of American non-religious circumcision for males occurs all the time... I'm not really sure what you're shocked.. about??

She's talking about female circumcision. More popularly, and correctly, known as female genital mutilation.

 

[beenie]

Quite a few males are circumcised routinely, mainly in Muslim or Jewish areas, and a fair amount of American non-religious circumcision for males occurs all the time... I'm not really sure what you're shocked.. about??

Are you familiar with what FGM is and what it does to a young woman?

FGM is generally NOT done at birth, but more around the age of 8, before they hit puberty.

FGM is done with no anesthesia, often under non-sterile conditions, performed by a local "specialist". Yes, some are done in hospitals, but most are not.

To belittle the practice of FGM by comparing it to male circumcision is absurd. Women who have been victims of this disgusting practice often have psychological as well as physical difficulties. These women will never enjoy intercourse, and to be honest, will find it to be torture, especially the first several times.

97% sounds awfully high, and I'm hoping someone will disprove this.

Here is an article describing the physical and emotional complications from FGM:
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/fgm/health_consequences_fgm/en/index.html

 

[Mathematician]

How can male circumcision be worse? They get a bit of foreskin chopped off whereas women might get their entire outer genitals removed and most areas sewn over. There is a great deal more mutilation involved in female circumcision.

Like I said, it depends on the type of circumcision. However, none of the popular surgeries eradicate pleasure or prevent a woman from orgasming. The procedure is cosmetic. Just like male circumcision in the United States.

I really think this is just an issue Western feminists adopted for their own political purposes, but that's a little sidetracking.

 

[Mathematician]

Are you familiar with what FGM is and what it does to a young woman?

FGM is generally NOT done at birth, but more around the age of 8, before they hit puberty.

FGM is done with no anesthesia, often under non-sterile conditions, performed by a local "specialist". Yes, some are done in hospitals, but most are not.

To belittle the practice of FGM by comparing it to male circumcision is absurd. Women who have been victims of this disgusting practice often have psychological as well as physical difficulties. These women will never enjoy intercourse, and to be honest, will find it to be torture, especially the first several times.

97% sounds awfully high, and I'm hoping someone will disprove this.

It should be pointed out that in these regions of the world male circumcision is also being performed in the same manner: at later ages and in unsterilized areas (although in countries like Egypt I doubt this is as prevalent).

I really don't see the difference. It's kind of offensive that we're turning a human rights issue into a gender issue.

 

[Madhuri]

I really don't see the difference. It's kind of offensive that we're turning a human rights issue into a gender issue.

This isn't meant to be a gender issue. It's an 'I can't believe this happens in Egypt' issue. If it's also a shady procedure for men then I'll be aghast about it as well. In most places, it seems male circumcision is not very traumatic. At least, that's what people keep telling me.

 

[Desert Snake]

To belittle the practice of FGM by comparing it to male circumcision is absurd.

I'm not belittling anything, and of course people are going to compare FGM to male circumcision.

 

[beenie]

It should be pointed out that in these regions of the world male circumcision is also being performed in the same manner: at later ages and in unsterilized areas (although in countries like Egypt I doubt this is as prevalent).

I really don't see the difference.

The difference is, that while both practices are rather painful, women who undergo FGM have far more complications and cannot enjoy intercourse ever. The very part of the female body that allows for orgasm is cut off. It doesn't grow back, for God's sake. I can guarantee you if people started removing a male's ability to orgasm we would NOT be having this conversation.

FGM is done specifically to ensure the girl's purity and virginity. I don't see boys having their sexuality curbed through circumcision.

 

[Zoe Doidge]

This is the source used on Wikipedia.

97% or not, it certainly seems to be a widespread practice in Egypt.

 

[beenie]

I'm not belittling anything, and of course people are going to compare FGM to male circumcision.

Tell me something: do you remember being circumcised? Are you able to orgasm? Ok then.

 

[Mathematician]

The difference is, that while both practices are rather painful, women who undergo FGM have far more complications and cannot enjoy intercourse ever. The very part of the female body that allows for orgasm is cut off. It doesn't grow back, for God's sake. I can guarantee you if people started removing a male's ability to orgasm we would NOT be having this conversation.

FGM is done specifically to ensure the girl's purity and virginity. I don't see boys having their sexuality curbed through circumcision.

I just posted a meta-study that indicates women still orgasm and feel pleasure, though. There's no scientific claim to it turning women into eunuchs.

There's reduced pleasure, but that's true for men too.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think that this statistic is about older figures, as the 97% figure is higher than what's been reported later by the Guardian in its 2007 article about the banning of female circumcision in Egypt:

In 2005, research by Unicef found that 96% of Egyptian women aged 15 to 49 who had ever been married reported they had been circumcised. The Egyptian government says a more recent study found 50.3% of girls aged 10 to 18 had been circumcised.

The bold part is is closer to the figure quoted in this thread, which includes women aged 15 to 49.

However, female circumcision has been banned in Egypt since and the practice is dying out, albeit at a slower pace in less-educated areas of the country.

For what it's worth, none of my female relatives underwent the procedure, and most people I know strongly frown upon the practice and wouldn't subject their daughters to it at all.

 

[Revoltingest]

I still look at this from a general perspective.
Cutting/trimming/mutilation....whatever we call it, it ain't like a cleft palate or heart defect.
We shouldn't modify normal children without informed consent, either male or female.
It's their decision for when they're ready.

 

[Madhuri]

DS, thank you for that! It's good to know.