What the...Egypt female circumcision

[Gharib]

So is this an inquiry of whether it has anything to do with Islam or if the numbers are true within Egypt?

 

[Madhuri]

So is this an inquiry of whether it has anything to do with Islam or if the numbers are true within Egypt?

It is not about Islam, which is why I kept it out of religious debates. My assumption is that female circumcision is not grounded in the Islamic religion.
I was mostly shocked that the numbers were so high in a place like Egypt.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I just posted a meta-study that indicates women still orgasm and feel pleasure, though. There's no scientific claim to it turning women into eunuchs.

There's reduced pleasure, but that's true for men too.

There's plenty of documentation that shows the effects of female circumcision including:

Painful intercourse
Repeated procedures because of childbirth difficulty
Higher infant mortality rates of babies born to mothers who underwent infibrilation

Among other physical and psychological trauma. Ayaan Hirsi Ali documented her journey along with other women who have come forward telling their stories of fear, pain, and healing.

No, FGM and male circumcision are not in the same boat. Not even close.

 

[Desert Snake]

No, FGM and male circumcision are not in the same boat. Not even close.

Outright dismissal of comparing the two seems a bit disingenuous, though.

 

[Gharib]

It is not about Islam, which is why I kept it out of religious debates. My assumption is that female circumcision is not grounded in the Islamic religion.
I was mostly shocked that the numbers were so high in a place like Egypt.

Numbers don't really mean anything, but how they are presented does mean everything.

I didn't read the link and I don't support this practice, have never heard of it as being Islamic. But I don't think the 'source' has another number along side it which says that so and so women were forced into it.

I don't know why those of us thousands of miles away have to complain if those that are from there wish to do it?

All we know is an article we read from a western feminist who says that it's evil because whether good or bad he/she just doesn't like it personally. A lot of this stuff is also said about male circumcision by many other western 'scientists' who dislike the practice themselves and thus want to stop others from doing it simply because they personally feel that way about it.

There are over a billion Muslims, lets say half are males and all are circumcised, nothing is wrong with it even though some doctor with a PhD says so.

We are sold right away to any view point presented which conforms to our ideologies so long as a PhD, or Doctor or Scientist is mentioned even though what they say may be bull.

 

[beenie]

I just posted a meta-study that indicates women still orgasm and feel pleasure, though. There's no scientific claim to it turning women into eunuchs.

There's reduced pleasure, but that's true for men too.

How about we ask a woman who has undergone this procedure how pleasurable intercourse is for her instead of relying on science? Any woman's personal experience trumps any scientific report. Not to mention the fact that a girl has this procedure while being told she has to be "controlled" so she doesn't sleep around...that certainly has a psychological effect on her. I don't see men thinking they were sliced to prevent promiscuity. Is there an epidemic of men having trouble getting aroused because of circumcision that I'm not aware of?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I just posted a meta-study that indicates women still orgasm and feel pleasure, though. There's no scientific claim to it turning women into eunuchs.

There's reduced pleasure, but that's true for men too.

My grandmother was against the practice, although I suspect that many of her peers weren't (mostly due to lack of education). The reason she was went back to her witnessing one of her peers circumcising her daughters, which resulted in one of them suffering from vaginal bleeding and trauma.

The point is that female genital mutilation is not like male circumcision at all; it causes physical and psychological trauma and is an inherently misogynistic practice.

 

[Madhuri]

I didn't read the links Eselam. I just can't imagine having it done to me or that any woman would be comfortable to do it. Maybe these women believe it is for their best. And in the meantime have to suffer. There definitely are societies where women are forced to undergo this procedure and some have emerged to tell about how horrible it is.

I cannot imagine that there is any good reason to mutilate a woman's genital region or why a woman would want to do it.

 

[beenie]

Numbers don't really mean anything, but how they are presented does mean everything.

I didn't read the link and I don't support this practice, have never heard of it as being Islamic. But I don't think the 'source' has another number along side it which says that so and so women were forced into it.

I don't know why those of us thousands of miles away have to complain if those that are from there wish to do it?

All we know is an article we read from a western feminist who says that it's evil because whether good or bad he/she just doesn't like it personally. A lot of this stuff is also said about male circumcision by many other western 'scientists' who dislike the practice themselves and thus want to stop others from doing it simply because they personally feel that way about it.

There are over a billion Muslims, lets say half are males and all are circumcised, nothing is wrong with it even though some doctor with a PhD says so.

We are sold right away to any view point presented which conforms to our ideologies so long as a PhD, or Doctor or Scientist is mentioned even though what they say may be bull.

Brother, with all due respect (and you know I respect you a lot), but girls who undergo FGM "willingly" do so because it has been indoctrinated in their minds that this is "necessary" and if they don't do it, they are "dirty". In a culture where purity is so very instilled in women, these girls, by default, really don't have the choice.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Outright dismissal of comparing the two seems a bit disingenuous, though.

Okay.

FGM has been documented by researchers and anthropologists to have caused continued painful intercourse, septic shock and hemorrage from ripping of infibrulated tissue during intercourse and childbirth, decreased flow of urine and menstrual blood passage, and unintended labia fusion resulting in repeated procedures.

Please inform me where male circumcision has been documented to have caused the same trauma that includes risk of infection throughout the man's life, infant mortality rates, and childbirth risk. I'm all ears.

 

[Desert Snake]

Please inform me where male circumcision has been documented to have caused the same trauma

Didn't say it did, but the comparison between the two will, and should, IMO. be made.

 

[beenie]

Didn't say it did, but the comparison between the two will, and should, IMO. be made.

Fair enough, compare all you want, but it's going to be near impossible to convince most people that male circumcision even compares minutely to FGM.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Didn't say it did, but the comparison between the two will, and should, IMO. be made.

Got it.

I've read the negative possible impact of male circumcision is decreased sexual function/pleasure, HIV infection incidence, and increased rates of vaginal and urinary tract infections.

Possible negative impact of female circumcision has been everything I listed previously.

The two comparisons show a gross injustice and human rights abuse on the part of female genital mutilation.

 

[Desert Snake]

Fair enough, compare all you want, but it's going to be near impossible to convince most people that male circumcision even compares minutely to FGM.

They're both circumcision, one might be more extreme however it really all stems from religious practices, of course there are differences but you really have to understand that saying one is O.K. but the other is terrible just seems biased. Btw, there are Jewish people speaking out against circumcision also, it's not just secularist opinion.

 

[waitasec]

Quite a few males are circumcised routinely, mainly in Muslim or Jewish areas, and a fair amount of American non-religious circumcision for males occurs all the time... I'm not really sure what you're shocked.. about??

Outright dismissal of comparing the two seems a bit disingenuous, though.

:foot:
run SKKF, run while you still can

 

[Flankerl]

I'm not belittling anything, and of course people are going to compare FGM to male circumcision.

Which is beyond stupid because they are not the same.

You know when it would be the same? If you'd scrape the Glans and Corpora Cavernosa a bit off the penis.

Sounds a bit different than your usual circumcision doesnt it? Which is why there is male circumcision and female genital mutilation.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

They're both circumcision, one might be more extreme however it really all stems from religious practices, of course there are differences but you really have to understand that saying one is O.K. but the other is terrible just seems biased. Btw, there are Jewish people speaking out against circumcision also, it's not just secularist opinion.

What is your comparison, then? If one "might be more extreme", how is it more extreme?

One thing we'll agree on, though, is the cultural acceptance of male circumcision has decreased.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What a convenient tool in the toolchest of histrionics: with one simple comparison one can simultaneously and enthusiastically demagogue circumcision and trivialize female genital mutilation. Why such enthusiasm is another matter entirely.

 

[Desert Snake]

:foot:
run SKKF, run while you still can

So what exactly are you saying...that male circumcision is completely acceptable but all forms of FGM are terrible? Think about it, even f I agree with you, because I personally don't care if people choose circumcision, it seems biased towards womens rights while downplaying male rights.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Which is beyond stupid because they are not the same.

You know when it would be the same? If you'd scrape the Glans and Corpora Cavernosa a bit off the penis.

Sounds a bit different than your usual circumcision doesnt it? Which is why there is male circumcision and female genital mutilation.

Or the removal of the glans all together, without anesthesia, and with the risk of any surgical stitching (sometimes with thorns) ripping apart during intercourse as an adult.

Then the two would be comparable.