Some believe that Jesus belonged to the Essenes. He was an eschatological preacher.
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What "the end of days" means to you. Open to Abrahamic faiths.
- Thread starter jeager106
- Start date
Some believe that Jesus belonged to the Essenes. He was an eschatological preacher.
Sorry to be late for the party.
I was hoping to explore this theme through a thread I recently started titled the Olivet Discourse. It involves a study of Mathew - Chapter 24. However this topic end of days addresses key issues really well too. It doesn't matter whether its my thread or someone elses, but it would be helpful to study Mathew 24 as well as any other relevant material from other Faiths.
I am currently running a small Bible study meeting weekly. There are just 4 of us, an agnostic, conservative Christian, Catholic, and Baha'i. I am the Baha'i. We have some lively and interesting discussions and so I started participating in this forum less than a month ago hoping to find people here who are interested in exploring this theme as it relates to the Old and New testament.
Briefly some of my understanding to date is that Jesus speaks of the end of an era that is about to come upon His own people but also the beginning of a new era which is the rise of the Christian Faith. The prophesised destruction of the temple sets the scene. The twin processes of death and and birth relate to the end of the Christian era and the beginning of a new era of world peace. References to the sun, moon, stars and clouds of heaven are important symbols. The era of world peace is clearly foreseen in Isaiah. The book of Daniel is specifically mentioned and is a vital key for unlocking further insights. This in turn open doors to a more complete understanding of the Book of revelation. The language of course is all highly symbolic and at some point it becomes apparent that history has or will repeat itself. There is no physical rapture as the original OP eluded to.
I am not a religious leader or scholar so excuse me if the language shows my lack of formal training.
I was hoping to explore this theme through a thread I recently started titled the Olivet Discourse. It involves a study of Mathew - Chapter 24. However this topic end of days addresses key issues really well too. It doesn't matter whether its my thread or someone elses, but it would be helpful to study Mathew 24 as well as any other relevant material from other Faiths.
I am currently running a small Bible study meeting weekly. There are just 4 of us, an agnostic, conservative Christian, Catholic, and Baha'i. I am the Baha'i. We have some lively and interesting discussions and so I started participating in this forum less than a month ago hoping to find people here who are interested in exploring this theme as it relates to the Old and New testament.
Briefly some of my understanding to date is that Jesus speaks of the end of an era that is about to come upon His own people but also the beginning of a new era which is the rise of the Christian Faith. The prophesised destruction of the temple sets the scene. The twin processes of death and and birth relate to the end of the Christian era and the beginning of a new era of world peace. References to the sun, moon, stars and clouds of heaven are important symbols. The era of world peace is clearly foreseen in Isaiah. The book of Daniel is specifically mentioned and is a vital key for unlocking further insights. This in turn open doors to a more complete understanding of the Book of revelation. The language of course is all highly symbolic and at some point it becomes apparent that history has or will repeat itself. There is no physical rapture as the original OP eluded to.
I am not a religious leader or scholar so excuse me if the language shows my lack of formal training.
Jedster
Flying through space
My first thought on reading the OP.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
Jeager106,
You don't sound like you want to know more about Jehovah, but sound like you want someone to agree with you that rule by The Almighty God is not something that will be unbelievably great, and something to look for and pray for.
I don't know where you have gotten the information you wrote, but it shows that you do not understand God's purpose for earth.
In the first place, there is no one in existence who is more forgiving and more loving that The Almighty God, Jehovah.
Since God created man He knows what is best for us, and He wants the best foe us. Think how a loving father today treats his children, and loves to make them happy. Then think about God who created man, and knows us better than we can ever know ourselves, and wants to make His obedient children happy.
Allow me to show you from the Bible what it will be like after Armageddon!
All who live through the Great Tribulation will start to bring this world back to the condition that was in the Garden of Eden, Revelation 7:14. Before many years, we will start welcoming back the billions of dead ones. There will probably be lists naming the one who will be resurrected,so that we will be able to build houses for our relatives to live in and stock their refrigerator with food, and make sure they have ground that can be cultivated, that they will own. Think about how happy we will be to see our dead loved ones come to life again!!
The time we will be living in will be The Thousand Year Judgment Day. Those living will not be judged by what they did before Armageddon, because Jesus died for those sins, and if we are ones who died, we have paid the ultimate price for our sins, death, Romans 6:7, 23.
The Bible tells us many of the conditions we will enjoy on earth. There will be a group of 144,000 people that went to heaven, to be rulers over the earth, Revelation 5:9,10, 7:3,4, 14:1-5, 20:4-6, Romans 8:14-17, 2Timothy 2:11,12. These ones re the Born Again ones, Born of the spirit to be immortal Kings and Priests in heaven, over the people who will live on earth forever, Psalms 37:29, 115:16, Isaiah 45:18.
Many conditions of the New Earth are mentioned in Isaiah 11:1-9, 25:6-9, 32:1-4, 65:17-25.
In Job 26:14 we are told that all the creations of God that we see are just the fringes of His creations.
We will have eternity to learn more about our loving Father in Heaven, and about His creations, and no telling what we will learn about the heavens. And think about the pleasure the animals will be to us when they will be no danger to us.
As we grow to perfection we will use 100% of our brain, so we will not forget things as now, I even herd that someday we will know the names of all the billions of people on earth.
We will have the opportunity to master many things we are interested in, musical instruments, or whatever we might think of that we have wanted to do, ut did not have the time.
Another thing that I would love to see, is the materialized Kingsand Priests, as Paul, Peter, John, and the rest of the apostles, and all the other anointed of Jehovah that will be our Kings and Priests, that might come down to earth to give us talks or just to tell us things of interest to us, that has happened in the past, but there is no written record. Intriguing, I think!!
We will be happy beyond our dreams. Think about you wife,now being the perfect companion, how happifying that will be!!!
Every day will be a delight, we will never be bored and we will always have the energy to do what we want to do.
The people who will not learn righteousness wil not be punished or tormented forever, their punishment will be Everlasting death, destruction, 2Thessaloians 1:6-9.
Agape!!!
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Does anyone want to go to the place where the people can not listen?
jtartar
Well-Known Member
U
savagewind,
Jesus is with us in spirit, just as God is!!
There are many Scriptures that tell us that Jesus is in heaven, at the right side of God, Ephesians 1:20, Hebrews 1:2,3, 12:,2. The Bibleeven tells us that Jesus will stay in heaven until the restoration of all things, Acts 3:20,21.
If you read Matthew 24:27,29,30, you will understand that when Jesus comes back to earth, everyone will know it. Think about what it will be like for lightning to go from one end of the earth to the other. Thunder will also be heard, most likely more frightening than ever before.
Ezekiel even tells us that when Jesus comes every person will be shaking, along with the animals, Ezekiel 38:20. Also 2Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:32,32.
savagewind,
Jesus is with us in spirit, just as God is!!
There are many Scriptures that tell us that Jesus is in heaven, at the right side of God, Ephesians 1:20, Hebrews 1:2,3, 12:,2. The Bibleeven tells us that Jesus will stay in heaven until the restoration of all things, Acts 3:20,21.
If you read Matthew 24:27,29,30, you will understand that when Jesus comes back to earth, everyone will know it. Think about what it will be like for lightning to go from one end of the earth to the other. Thunder will also be heard, most likely more frightening than ever before.
Ezekiel even tells us that when Jesus comes every person will be shaking, along with the animals, Ezekiel 38:20. Also 2Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:32,32.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
savagewind,
You are rather comical, the length you go to, so that you do not have to listen to anyone. Your reasoning is, what is called dereism.
At Hebrews 13:17 we are told to be obedient and submissive to the ones taking the lead in the congregation.
Notice Romans 13:1,2, which tells us that we should be in subjection to the higher authorities. These Scriptures, as well as Hebrews 13:17, are relative, because the highest authority is God, so we obey these other authorities, as long as they do not require us to do anything that God condemns, Acts 5:29.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
savagewind,
Jesus gave up a life in the flesh when he gave his body as The Ransom Scrifice for all who will obey and follow Jesus, 1Peter 3:18,19, 1Peter 2:21, Matthew 20:28.
We understand that even though Jesus is a Spirit, just as his Father is, John 4:24, 2Corinthians 3:17, he can materialize a human body, just s he did after he was resurrected in the first century. So we do not know if we will be able to actually see Jesus, but we do know that we will definitely know when he returns, in Kingdom power, 1Corinthians 15:50.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
adrian009,
You sound very good to me, but you have mentioned things it would take a book long post.
If you could ask a particular question about Matthew 24, I would be happy to explain it to you. Agape!!!
jtartar
Well-Known Member
adrian009,
You sound very good to me, but you have mentioned things it would take a book long post.
If you could ask a particular question about Matthew 24, I would be happy to explain it to you. Agape!!!
But Hebrews 13:17 DOESN'T say "be obedient". It says "YIELD". And I AM yielding.
Yield means to let them go their way.
Πείθεσθε those leading you and ὑπείκετε·
First of all, nowhere does it say to be submissive TO THEM
Tell me, why not try this on?.....Or are you happy doing dereism.
Hebrews 13:17
Be persuading those leading you and submit for them to watch over you.
Do not stop them who take the lead among you but be submissive [TO GOD].
To imagine that God Almighty, even AFTER Jesus, gave you men to obey is CRAZY.
1 Samuel 8:6-7
Imagine that the writer is telling you 1. do not fight (Πείθεσθε) 2. submit yourself to God's will be done (ὑπείκετε·)
and 3. help them to stay awake.
(ἀγρυπνοῦσιν)
A watchman has a difficult job. It is lonely and the threat of sleep is great.
So? Visit them. Bring them food and clothing.......
Matthew 25:31–46
First of all, nowhere does it say to be submissive TO THEM
Tell me, why not try this on?.....Or are you happy doing dereism.
Hebrews 13:17
Be persuading those leading you and submit for them to watch over you.
Do not stop them who take the lead among you but be submissive [TO GOD].
To imagine that God Almighty, even AFTER Jesus, gave you men to obey is CRAZY.
1 Samuel 8:6-7
Imagine that the writer is telling you 1. do not fight (Πείθεσθε) 2. submit yourself to God's will be done (ὑπείκετε·)
and 3. help them to stay awake.
(ἀγρυπνοῦσιν)
A watchman has a difficult job. It is lonely and the threat of sleep is great.
So? Visit them. Bring them food and clothing.......
Matthew 25:31–46
Jehaovah's Witnesses why not try looking at it in a different light?
The writer of Hebrews 13:17 wrote that men would watch over your souls. You believe your men watch over your souls in a fine way because you obey Hebrews 13:17.
Why would the writer say that men who didn't even exist at the writing of it would be men to be trusted?
I am sure that saying so would be contradicting every other "word of God".
Think! Moses didn't enter the promised land because of his disobedience. Saul proved disloyal. David was not to be trusted with another man's wife and his son resorted to false worship....
But you guys say that your men are different. You say God says to obey them. YOU have God contradicting God's self. Not wise!
The writer of Hebrews 13:17 wrote that men would watch over your souls. You believe your men watch over your souls in a fine way because you obey Hebrews 13:17.
Why would the writer say that men who didn't even exist at the writing of it would be men to be trusted?
I am sure that saying so would be contradicting every other "word of God".
Think! Moses didn't enter the promised land because of his disobedience. Saul proved disloyal. David was not to be trusted with another man's wife and his son resorted to false worship....
But you guys say that your men are different. You say God says to obey them. YOU have God contradicting God's self. Not wise!
Thanks for the response. Since posting on this thread I've learnt more about JW beliefs as well as further developing an understanding of apocalyptic scripture. I did set a couple of threads exploring the links between Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 9:24-27. As a Baha'i (we believe in the same God, Jesus, and Bible as the Christians) I think the best starting point for an interfaith discussion about these types of scripture is to find common ground about what OT prophecy Christ fulfilled and which He didn't. If we start with our very different understanding of the book of revelation its unlikely to be helpful IMHO.
Savagewind,
The first thing to understand, Jehovah is the Spirit, 2Corinthians 3:17,18. The fruit of the Spirit is the spirit that comes from Jehovah. The Spirit is the way that Jehovah accomplishes His will. He is not material, as we are, so He works with His Spirit. The fruits of the spirit are from Jehovah first, and He allows Jesus to use His spirit also.
If you consider 1Corinthians 12:1-14:40, you will understand how God uses His Holy Spirit.
Mankind moves by the power of God's spirit, lt that spirit stop shining on him, he dies, and the spirit returns to God, Ecclesiastes 12:7. If God were to withhold His spirit from all mankind, as well as animals, would all die, Job 34:14,15.
Even though it is the same spirit, it can accomplish anything God wants it to.
On this planet there are two different kinds of people, one called the earth, that is the stable group that act in a reasonable way, as far as mankind alienated from God, and until they come to KNOW God and follow Jesus, they as well as the other group called the SEA, which are always in turmoil, and unrest, just as the sea is, Revelation 12:15,16, Isaiah 57:20, and are enemies of God, and dead in His eyes, Romans 5:8-10, Ephesians 1:1,2, Colossians 1:19-23. The New Earth mentioned at Revelation 21:1, it is the same earthly sphere, but New because all who then inhabit it will worship Jehovah God, with the sea no more. The New Heaven mentioned there will be the new rulers in heaven taking the place of Satan and his demons, the 144,000, that follow Jesus where ever he goes, John 14:1-3, Revelation 14:1-4, Romans 8:17,2 Timothy 2:12, Philippians 3:20,21, Hebrews 3:1, Revelation 5:9,10, 20:4-6. Agape!!!
Savagewind,
If you had learned the Bible while you were associating with witnesses, you would know that obedience to any man is relative, you should obey the ones taking the lead in the congregation, as long as what they say is Bible based. We must obey God rather than men, Acts 5:29. Our leader is Jesus Christ, not any man or group of men, Matthew 23:10,11. According to the Bible we should not take any man's word for truth, but should check the Bible to make sure what we learn is truth, Acts 17:11.
In the first century, there was a group of men who acted as a governing body, in Jerusalem, with James, the half brother of Jesus acting as head. The apostles were the recognized authority of Christian doctrine, and when a question came up, they went to Jerusalem for answers, Acts 15:1,2,5,6-12, then James brought the question up and summed up the answer, and sent their answer, 13-32. In any organization you need people to take the lead.
I have heard people say that they don't like Organized religion. Tecting to think about here is; whore you working for, if it is the Almighty God Jehovah, would you not have the best organized religion on earth, to accomplish the work of God??? Acts 1:8, Matthew 24:14, 28:19,20.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Redemption of mankind for succumbing to good and evil in the first place.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
Many atheist cosmologists preferred 'static'/ 'steady state' models for the universe explicitly to avoid the uncomfortable implications of a specific creation event. The very notion of a beginning was called 'religious pseudoscience'
We now know there was such a beginning, to time itself, and so I believe there is also an end to the story, with a purpose, conclusion- the final test of good v evil, it only makes sense logically.
There can be no such thing as 'good' without a choice, it has to be chosen definitively and completely over evil..