You sound like the people who say that homophobia and transphobia doesn't exist. Let's try some examples: "Being against gay relationships and gay sex isn't bigoted...sorry to tell you." "Being against polytheism isn't bigoted...sorry to tell you." "Being against interracial relationships isn't bigoted...sorry to tell you." You're not even trying hard to be convincing here. You should know that I'm not that stupid. Give me a break, dear.
Flawed analogies because homosexuality, transgenderism et al are not inherently intolerant, do not cause harm to anyone in and of themselves and do not promote bigotry, violence or oppression. Why on earth should I, as a polytheist, tolerate or show respect to a belief system that is so hostile to polytheists that no country with a Muslim majority is safe for polytheists to practice their beliefs, or have their beliefs officially recognised & protected by law; that would, if in the social majority, deny me my right to worship as I see fit or gather with my friends for such? In Islam, polytheists are one of the worst kinds of people - those who commit
shirk.
For that matter, why are
you so determined to stick up for a religious culture that proves hostile to those who refuse to fit into Islam's binary view of gender?
What is "European/non-Islamic culture"?
Cultures that arose, developed or currently exist in Europe or in a context where Islam was not the predominant belief system.
What is "Islamic culture"?
Cultures that arose in a context where Islam was the dominant belief system.
They're not concrete things. Those are phantoms that exist in your head only.
So are things like nations, or agreements, or stories. We find meaning where we can. Does the fact none of these things are tangible mean that we're not allowed to take any of them seriously or learn from them?
You really want to play that card, with Europe's nasty history and present issues?
Look, if you think I'm arguing that Europe's history or peoples are
better or less violent than Islam, you're wrong. I'm not. Europeans have done, hell,
are doing some awful things. And while the good things don't cancel out the harm, they should be worth a mention. Non-Islamic cultures have given the world more positive things & more advances than Islamic culture(s).
The only people in this thread who are supporting forcing women to do anything are the people who want to make laws forcing them to dress in a certain way. Why can't you just mind your own business?
Because there are Muslims who ****-shame and harass Muslim women for not covering up when they walk through the streets. In places like Iran & Saudi Arabia women can be harassed or even raped for not being 'correctly covered'. And the latter is importing its toxic brand of Wahhabism to Western countries! What do you think will be the result of this?
Here's a story from Egypt from four years ago. While I hope things have improved since then, it highlights the narrative supporters of the ban are trying to fight.
I don't support polygamous marriage for a myriad of reasons and that has nothing to do with Islam. In North America, most polygamists are Christians. There's also very hardline Christian and Jewish sects who control the lives and bodies of women to extraordinary lengths. Haredi Jewish women, for example. But who cares about that; Muslims are the hated Others of the moment.
So you'll criticise polygamous marriage when it's in a Judeo-Christian context but when it's in an Islamic context... silence.
Who are you to decide what causes women "great harm"?
A person with an opinion and eyes to see.
A woman wearing a hijab at work or school is greatly harming herself?
You know that's not what I said. I said voluntarily covering aid & abets a culture that obligates women to cover themselves and take responsibility for the lusts, thoughts & words of men.
But the police harassing Muslim women and forcing them to take off their clothes is any better how?
No, it isn't. There's no easy answer to this situation. If we try and do something about this we're misogynists, cultural imperialists and so on who deny women their freedom. On the other hand if we do nothing we allow Islamism to continue sneaking its way into Europe through the trojan horse of (as ironic as this may sound) religious liberty.
What if a female relative of yours converts to Islam and decides to wear the hijab? What will you do then?
I'd tell her I'm concerned about how Islam views women and how it expects them to take the responsibility for men's thoughts & desires through covering their bodies.
I don't have a problem with public nudity. It's not banned everywhere. If a proposition came up to legalize public nudity where it has been banned, I'd likely vote for it.
But presumably you're not as vociferous in your support for legalising it as you are for lifting the burkini ban.
That's not something I have to wrestle with in my conscious, so speak for yourself. I don't support the state policing what people wear.
I'm glad for you. Really, I am. It must be great not having to deal with massive cognitive dissonance on this issue on a daily basis.
I'm not a liberal. I'm also a religious person. Catholicism has a lot in common with Islam, more than any other religion.
With their comparable religious history, I can understand that.
Really? Does Sharia law not consider a woman's testimony to be worth half of a man's? Does Islam not make husband-to-wife divorce far far easier than wife-to-husband divorce? Do Sharia law courts not discriminate against women?
And if Islam is not misogynistic, can you explain verses like
this,
this,
this or
this? Care to tell me how giving women half the inheritance of a man isn't misogyny? Care to tell me how instructions to beat disobedient wives isn't misogyny?
You've been reading too much Salafist crap. The hijab is more of a cultural thing than a purely religious issue. Not all Muslim women even wear the veil.
The thing is I'm not just talking about the hijab; but all coverings women are expected, even pressured by society to wear including the niqab or the jilbab.
Actually, what's being denounced is bigoted white Westerners continuing their cultural imperialism and supremacism against those they seek to dominate. Feminism has often been used as a tool by Western imperialism. Many modern feminists realize this and are trying to rectify that problem by boosting the reach of the voices of non-white and non-Western women. Why do you ignore what Muslim women say about the issue? All I see is men yapping about it on both sides.
This seems to only be a problem when it's non-Muslims doing it to Muslims. Apparently it's bigoted for Europeans to 'force' their culture onto migrants who are coming to Europe to live but not for Muslims to pressure non-Muslims to do likewise when living in Muslim countries.
As has been pointed out, there are many feminists who are fighting against the toxic aspects within the Muslim community (none of which are exclusive to it).
And I was way wrong about my claims in that respect. I understand that now.
Now you can see how laughable your ranting looks to me.
But not nearly as funny as you claiming that Islam is not an inherently misogynist religion. Do you also believe Islam doesn't perpetuate patriarchy?
