What the Heck is Going on in France with the Burkini??

[FearGod]

Excellent point. A country doesn't have to become something it doesn't want to be simply because some people want it that way, or at least by their actions would push it that way. This isn't to say that burkini wearing women at French beaches are consciously trying to turn France into a Muslimish country, but any acceptance of their customs would tend to change the cultural and perhaps political nature of France. If the French wish to keep the culture of the country free of Muslim influence I believe they have every right to do so.

Perhaps this is not politically correct, after all, the broad cultural nature of the USA has been formed by many diverse foreign elements---the melting pot phenomenon--- which makes it rather unique in the world. However, most all other countries have very old, well established, singular cultural identities, and I can understand them wanting to keep it that way.

..

Keeping their custom by force, and you agree with France.! how that is different from Saudi Arabia by forcing people
to wear their specific custom dress?

 

[Skwim]

Keeping their custom by force, and you agree with France.! how that is different from Saudi Arabia by forcing people
to wear their specific custom dress?

It isn't. Brickjectivity brought up a good point in post #4 that I overlooked, and I've rethought my thinking.


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[McBell]

Looks like it has been suspended:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/26/europe/france-burkini-ban-court-ruling/​

 

[AnnaCzereda]

The French have a tradition of laïcité which they value very highly.

And which is nothing else than the state-enforced tyranny of hard-core atheism.

But ask a USian whether he agrees with making racist abuse in public illegal, as it is in most of Europe,

And this is another ridiculous law - the so-called hate speech.

To sum up, democracy in the EU is the government telling people what to think and how to dress.

Wearing so-called Islamic dress is making a statement, rejecting the culture in which one lives (and from which one profits). If these people don't agree with French traditions, why are they there?

Because they were allowed to settle down there. Once you invite Muslims to your country, it's rather silly to expect them to parade naked on the beaches.
But I don't want to discuss here the stupid immigration policy, just tell me what this retarded law was going to accomplish? It's mainly Muslim dudes that become terrorists and pose a danger to the public safety. It seems that the French society became so scared by the terrorists that people are no longer able to think rationally.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

No one invited Arabs to go to France or Pakistanis to come to the UK. They came for the money, whether jobs or benefits. They want the benefits of our society without actually belong to it.

I wonder if the people in the US who criticise France for objecting to so-called Islamic dress would defend the fact that a woman going topless on a public beach (common in France) would end up in jail in most parts of the USA.

 

[McBell]

No one invited Arabs to go to France or Pakistanis to come to the UK. They came for the money, whether jobs or benefits. They want the benefits of our society without actually belong to it.

I wonder if the people in the US who criticise France for objecting to so-called Islamic dress would defend the fact that a woman going topless on a public beach (common in France) would end up in jail in most parts of the USA.

I suspect you will find that the US is split on whether woman should be allowed to go topless.

Personally, I am all for it.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

This picture and article just floored me.

Birkini Illegal


I don't see how France can consider themselves one of the 'free' countries of the world (maybe they don't want to be anymore). They allow scores of Muslims to legally immigrate to their country and then they deny them the freedom of dress that infringes on no one else!?

I am very interested to hear from anyone that agrees with this policy.

Coincidentally, last night I happened to read about actress Brigitte Bardot having been charged with an 'inciting hate' crime for saying things regarding Muslims that would just be within the normal range of free speech debate in the USA.

Well their president is a self confessed socialist so I don't think freedom is a top priority for them.

But I just came back from a trip there, and from this (other) side of the Atlantic, where the muslim population is pretty small and relatively well assimilated, I would tend to agree with you. But while there, the population/ culture shift, recent exponential growth in attacks etc, is quite alarming.

We interned/deported Germans, Japanese, Iranians when the situation called for it, I don't think we can look down our noses at others for similar or less drastic stances.

 

[George-ananda]

Well their president is a self confessed socialist so I don't think freedom is a top priority for them.

But I just came back from a trip there, and from this (other) side of the Atlantic, where the muslim population is pretty small and relatively well assimilated, I would tend to agree with you. But while there, the population/ culture shift, recent exponential growth in attacks etc, is quite alarming.

We interned/deported Germans, Japanese, Iranians when the situation called for it, I don't think we can look down our noses at others for similar or less drastic stances.

But the 'Burkini'??? Did not the French allow legal immigration to large numbers of Muslims? And then do this? I would even respect not allowing immigration from cultures not considered compatible with French culture.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

But the 'Burkini'??? Did not the French allow legal immigration to large numbers of Muslims? And then do this? I would even respect not allowing immigration from cultures not considered compatible with French culture.

I take your point, I saw a diagram there showing various forms of Muslim dress, some with red circles and lines over them, which is intuitively chilling to me - I think the 'Burkini' had a grey line and an asterisk for some reason, but I can't read French...

But as another poster touched on, we've allowed a lot of Europeans in the U.S, and I personally wouldn't complain if European women went topless here too! but I understand why it's not allowed.

 

[George-ananda]

I take your point, I saw a diagram there showing various forms of Muslim dress, some with red circles and lines over them, which is intuitively chilling to me - I think the 'Burkini' had a grey line and an asterisk for some reason, but I can't read French...

But as another poster touched on, we've allowed a lot of Europeans in the U.S, and I personally wouldn't complain if European women went topless here too! but I understand why it's not allowed.

I understand your point about topless in society, but those rules were created to not offend the viewer; not to restrict the topless person's freedom. They allow Catholic nuns to remain clothed.

 

[AnnaCzereda]

No one invited Arabs to go to France or Pakistanis to come to the UK.

I don't know whether they were invited or not but, for sure, they were allowed to stay. It's up to an individual country to set up such immigration policy that won't endanger the native culture or public safety. You don't have to let all the immigrants in but once you let them in, they should have the same freedoms as the rest of the citizens. Burkini ban reeks of ethnic discrimination, which is unbecoming for the supposedly democratic country.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I created the burkini to give women freedom, not to take it away
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ini-to-give-women-freedom-not-to-take-it-away

 

[Nous]

Evidently the French municipalities that have enacted bans on the "full-body bathing suit designed to accommodate Islamic modesty codes" have done so "on the grounds that it is not 'appropriate,' 'respectful of good morals and of secularism' and 'respectful of the rules of hygiene and security of bathers on public beaches.'" http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/25/world/europe/france-burkini.html?smid=tw-share&_r=2 Relatives of the woman ejected from the beach rightly "asked the police why they were not hunting down people with crosses, if outward shows of religious faith were the target of the new law". The same could be asked about people who are allowed to wear yarmulkas. The article includes a photo of nuns at the beach, no less overly dressed in religiously symbolic garb.

These French laws are motivated by an animus toward Muslims, and are irrationally discriminatory toward Muslims. No one is harmed by someone wearing a "burkini".

 

[Sunstone]

What a lot of posturing USians! The French have a tradition of laïcité which they value very highly. The fact that you don't share it or understand it is unlikely to upset them. You, on the other hand, are obsessed with freedom of speech to an extent that mystifies French and Britons. But ask a USian whether he agrees with making racist abuse in public illegal, as it is in most of Europe, and the result may vary with their race.

Wearing so-called Islamic dress is making a statement, rejecting the culture in which one lives (and from which one profits). If these people don't agree with French traditions, why are they there? And to any USians who want to preach the virtues of multiculturalism, I suggest they look at the US "culture wars", not to mention the level of racism in the USA.

Your post would have been greatly improved had you spent more effort explaining laïcité and the French point of view, and spent less effort than you did in being angry at Americans.

 

[Sunstone]

I do not agree with the policy. Were I a lawmaker in France, I would presumably not vote for it.

But it is the law, and it is a respectable law.

I am going to say something that a lot of people who are European want to say but usually feel that they cannot say: You do not get to dictate what Europeans do,and you do not get to make Europeans bad for standing up for European values. This is France, not Saudi Arabia. France gets to demand a certain minimum standard of public decency, even if that does not comport with Islamist norms, which are among the most indecent in the world.

European values are better than Islamic values. Yup, you heard that right. At a minimum, Europeans feel that they are. And I agree: They're worth defending. We should not apologize for it any more. And I'm not going to, and I hope others don't. If Muslims want to have an Islamist pride parade, they can do it in Mecca.

We share many of the same sentiments, but not the same reasoning. Oh well.

 

[fantome profane]

But the 'Burkini'??? Did not the French allow legal immigration to large numbers of Muslims? And then do this? I would even respect not allowing immigration from cultures not considered compatible with French culture.

It is hard to stop an idea at the border. Even a Trumpian wall can't do that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Gotta wonder if one would be allowed to wear a bikini on the beaches of Saudi Arabia.

Almost certainly not. And if people weren't more focused on the way that Saudi Arabia murders apostates from Islam and forbids women from driving, you might hear more criticism of it.

On the Saudi Arabia human rights violations list, "no bikinis on Arabian beaches" is on there, but it's pretty far down.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

European values are better than Islamic values. Yup, you heard that right. At a minimum, Europeans feel that they are. And I agree: They're worth defending. We should not apologize for it any more. And I'm not going to, and I hope others don't. If Muslims want to have an Islamist pride parade, they can do it in Mecca.

"European values" are nothing more than the values of Europeans, and many Europeans (by birth or by immigration) are Muslim.

 

[Thanda]

I do not agree with the policy. Were I a lawmaker in France, I would presumably not vote for it.

But it is the law, and it is a respectable law.

I am going to say something that a lot of people who are European want to say but usually feel that they cannot say: You do not get to dictate what Europeans do,and you do not get to make Europeans bad for standing up for European values. This is France, not Saudi Arabia. France gets to demand a certain minimum standard of public decency, even if that does not comport with Islamist norms, which are among the most indecent in the world.

European values are better than Islamic values. Yup, you heard that right. At a minimum, Europeans feel that they are. And I agree: They're worth defending. We should not apologize for it any more. And I'm not going to, and I hope others don't. If Muslims want to have an Islamist pride parade, they can do it in Mecca.

And how do you know the people who want to wear Burkini's are not European: or did, by European did you perhaps mean white?

 

[McBell]

... France gets to demand a certain minimum standard of public decency...

What, exactly, about the Burkini is "indecent"?