What theories underpin DEI ?

[icehorse]

@The Hammer

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first thing you said to me in this thread was:

@icehorse isn't worth engaging with anymore it's why I don't. Run and block while you can. They are way insincere.

I think there is a really simple concept here. It often gets all obfuscated, but I think we can keep it simple.

I'm here to discuss and debate IDEAS. I often find stances that I believe in, that I suspect will be viewed as contrarian on RF. That's kind of the point. To find points of disagreement and debate and discuss them.

But it's SUPPOSED to be about discussing IDEAS. It is NOT supposed to be about making personal attacks e.g. "they are way insincere". In fact, forum rules state (more or less), "no personal attacks".

 

[Orbit]

I'd guess that everyone on this forum is well intended and wants to serve all of our students better. But it's also the case that DEI is often weaponized to try to bring "woke" ideologies to school.

(As an aside, I'm not attached to the term "woke". I have asked before and gotten no responses, so I'll ask again:

Some people put a lot of emphasis on social justice, they might also strongly believe in intersectionality theory, they might put a lot of emphasis on identity politics, and so on. I would like to know what term they would like to be referred to as? perhaps "progressive left"?)

You can see examples of the woke politicizing schools in this very document. I will direct you to the 2nd paragraph in the left column of page 2. Please read that paragraph very carefully. Then tell me again that this is not woke politicalization. I will be more than happy to walk through this paragraph with you in detail.



Yup, some politicians on the right are doing just that. And I agree that we should keep politics out of school. But that means BOTH right wing AND left wing politics. It is simply not the case that only the right is trying to control schools. The left is as well !


Well first off I am a professional educator, and I disagree with a lot of the ideas in the DEI document provided earlier.

My personal sense is that this DEI document was sloppily done in an attempt to appease "progressive left" political agendas. If you were to agree with that, we'd probably find that we're more aligned than not. But as long as you defend that document without compromise I have to disagree with you about what constitutes high quality education.


Most do not, a few do.


I never said that. But I will not stop saying what I believe should NOT be taught. So I think it's destructive and divisive to teach students that european colonizers are uniquely "bad" and that our education system is systemically racist and must be dismantled. (Which is one of the things the document explicitly calls for.)

OTOH, if we were to teach that most ALL cultures have been guilty of colonization and we should do a comparative analysis, I think that would be fine.



Some disciplines have been hijacked by the progressive left, and some progressive left teachers are politicizing their disciplines.

You know that movie where no one will listen to the professors so the world ends? You’re in that movie.

 

[Unfettered]

That was the sunshine up the skirt sales pitch, but DEI is clannish and only promotes Leftist groups and ideology. The political Right is 50% part of our cultural diversity, but it is not welcome at the table. How is their diversity included? Religion is part of our national diversity, so where are they at the DEI table?

This is exactly why I do not support it. Hypocrisy is really one just saying, "No matter what I say, I should not be taken seriously by any rational person."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The article you linked to claimed James II began Irish slavery in 1625, which he somehow managed to do several years before he was actually born in 1633.

Also a bit of a strange choice of king to make up such information about given he is James/Jacobite/Battle of the Boyne/etc. opponent of the King Billy beloved by Orangemen and Ulster loyalists for defeating the Catholic James.

And if prison, penal transportation and any form of unfree labour should be considered slavery, why single out Irish and Scots?

It’s just a grievance myth invented by Irish and white nationalists.

Can read about it here in the Dublin Review of Books:

Slaves to a Myth - DRB

The notion that large numbers of Irish immigrants were once slaves has been mobilised by the American alt-right to deflect from historical and contemporary racism while simultaneously promoting a white nationalist agenda based on claims of white victimhood.

drb.ie

I haven't been claiming large numbers. I've been saying involuntary servitude is slavery, and then pointed to ths prison situation, which isn't chattle slavery as we think of it but is widely regarded as slavery.

 

[sayak83]

I make a few assumptions about this document:

1 - I assume the document was created in good faith, in other words the authors meant what they said.
2 - I assume the document has several goals, including teaching teachers what DEI is, and how to use DEI principles.
3 - I assume the minimally qualified intended audience is teachers who know little or nothing about DEI. I say this because they included a glossary of fairly foundational DEI terms.
4 - The document carries significant weight in the California community college arena.

Do you think those are fair assumptions? If so, I can respond to your points above.

4th I am not sure of. It looks, at first glance, to be a vague "good vibes" policy document without any specific policy implementation idea being proposed. The document look like just an attempt to have some bureaucratic checkboxes ticked. As a professor, if I get that document in my table, it goes into my recycle bin the next day as it has NO actionable concrete ideas in it and no strategy to implement them.

 

[sayak83]

Hmmm. That's not generally how it works on RF. You made a claim, I said your claim was debunked. So I think it's on you to defend your orifinal claim. I know I'm frequently in your position in these debates and in general we do not respond by saying "prove my claim was wrong". I suppose we could, but then we'd instantly be stuck in the mud.

I read the article you posted. It's a sort of hodge-podge of approaches, some I agree with others are, again, debunked. For example, "gamification" is now known to be a bad strategy if your goal is long term learning and engagement. It's important here to distinguish between games and gamification, but I'm taking the author at their word.



I assume you're referring to this earlier exchange?:





== If so, here are my responses:

I have no problem helping students who - through no fault of their own - need to catch up to the level of more fortunate students who have the prerequisite skills and knowledge to complete the course. But we cannot dumb down course work to the level of the least qualified students. At some point every successful student is going to have to master complex topics if they are going to succeed in the world. For example, I completely agree and understand that some community college students come from poor educational backgrounds, and perhaps their math skills need to be improved. No worries, provide classes to let them catch up. But we cannot "dumb down" calculus for these students.

It's your second bullet that I claimed has been debunked. This idea of student "learning styles" simply does not lead to improved retention. Decades ago that idea was popular and highly touted, but it just didn't hold up. But that is NOT to say that I'm advocating for a "static lecture and exam type environment". I think we can both agree that that's also not ideal.

So what do you mean by "flexible curriculum"? I suspect I'll disagree with this approach, but back to Barack Obama's advice: Try to understand a person before you disagree with them

A flexible curriculum means something like this:-
I am teaching thermodynamics. I have 4 types of assessments. Monthly closed notes quizzes, Open ended research topic based group projects ending with a project research paper, take home software coding assignments, group projects on developing working models of thermodynamic devices. Along with class lectures, I will add online directed readings and lectures that add depth in various aspects (like how to build working models, how to understand research papers and tackle simulations for research etc.) While 60% if the course material and associated marking is common, 40% is based on student choice on which of these 4 types of assessments he/she wants to focus on.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A flexible curriculum means something like this:-
I am teaching thermodynamics. I have 4 types of assessments. Monthly closed notes quizzes, Open ended research topic based group projects ending with a project research paper, take home software coding assignments, group projects on developing working models of thermodynamic devices. Along with class lectures, I will add online directed readings and lectures that add depth in various aspects (like how to build working models, how to understand research papers and tackle simulations for research etc.) While 60% if the course material and associated marking is common, 40% is based on student choice on which of these 4 types of assessments he/she wants to focus on.

Reminds me of the rubrics menu or some name like that a couple of my teachers used.

 

[icehorse]

While 60% if the course material and associated marking is common, 40% is based on student choice on which of these 4 types of assessments he/she wants to focus on.

This all sounds great, but can you expand a little more on the choices available to the students for the 40%?

 

[icehorse]

4th I am not sure of. It looks, at first glance, to be a vague "good vibes" policy document without any specific policy implementation idea being proposed. The document look like just an attempt to have some bureaucratic checkboxes ticked. As a professor, if I get that document in my table, it goes into my recycle bin the next day as it has NO actionable concrete ideas in it and no strategy to implement them.

I do find that comforting!

I'm curious to know what you make of the 2nd paragraph on the left column on page 2? To be honest, I had to read it slowly, a couple of times because the sentence structures are somewhat tortured...

 

[sayak83]

This all sounds great, but can you expand a little more on the choices available to the students for the 40%?

As I said, the rest 40% would be from a basket of potential projects, research paper writing, creating of demos etc

 

[icehorse]

As I said, the rest 40% would be from a basket of potential projects, research paper writing, creating of demos etc

It sounds like the prof has a hand in determining the 40%, or at least approving it? If so, that sounds great!

 

[icehorse]

I'm off for a few days, but I'll come back to this thread for more... conversation

 

[sayak83]

It sounds like the prof has a hand in determining the 40%, or at least approving it? If so, that sounds great!

Of course. Flexibility does not mean it does not need professors approval. The point is the students do get choices that help them showcase their unique capabilities.

 

[icehorse]

Of course. Flexibility does not mean it does not need professors approval. The point is the students do get choices that help them showcase their unique capabilities.

Your descriptions of "flexible curriculum" sound valid to me. It also sounds like an approach that's more suitable to the later years in undergrad work or for graduate students?

My thought here is that in community colleges, students need to really nail down the fundamentals. For example, I'd guess that before your students can take thermodynamics they'd have to have college level calculus, maybe physics, maybe chemistry, maybe others? It's been a while, but when I took those pre-req courses they were tough, and there really wasn't time for much flexible curriculum in those core, foundational classes.

Does that sound similar to your situation?