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What Was Israel's Ancient Belief?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
When I talk about chosen people, I am basically referring to the covenant of Abraham in genesis 15-17. The whole idea that God has chosen a particular people as a special status and that these people are somehow closer to God than others, is the fundamental problem of all Abrahamic religions. In this case, the Jews. The Jews claim that they were chosen for spreading the message of God to the entire humanity. So, they assume that they have a special status which on the flip side indicates that others are somehow lesser than the Jews, and this brings forth equal and opposite reaction and the others also hit back at the Jews in whatever way they can. I see the Holocaust and even the present Gaza war as a fallout of this exclusivity of the Jewish people and the reaction it has brought. So, while receiving the law may appear to be a burden, but when it is turned around to claiming a special status above others. Then it becomes a source of conflict. Just to clarify, I think the Christianity suffers from the same problem when it says that Jesus is the only way and Islam suffers from the same problem when it says that Muhammad was the last and final prophet. So, my concern is that the conflicts that we see in the last 3500 years of human history are substantially based upon this concept of exclusivity, and therefore I think there is a need to reconsider the same. Thank you.
I stopped about halfway through reading. This was extremely offensive to me. There is nothing "special" or any "higher status" for Jews. There's good Jews and bad Jews just like any other group. We are NOT closer to God than anyone else. The only thing I hate worse than someone stupidly putting me on a pedestal, is someone saying the same things, but meaning it as an accusation that I supposedly claim I'm better than others. What rubbish. I am absolutely disgusted with you, and I'm blocking you so that I don't have to read any more of your self righteous crap.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala -

I would report your post, #100, but the moderators might agree with me and remove either your post in its entirety or delete the particularly offensive. That would deny others, such as @River Sea the opportunity to see you for what you truly are.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
When I talk about chosen people, I am basically referring to the covenant of Abraham in genesis 15-17. The whole idea that God has chosen a particular people as a special status and that these people are somehow closer to God than others, is the fundamental problem of all Abrahamic religions. In this case, the Jews. The Jews claim that they were chosen for spreading the message of God to the entire humanity. So, they assume that they have a special status which on the flip side indicates that others are somehow lesser than the Jews, and this brings forth equal and opposite reaction and the others also hit back at the Jews in whatever way they can. I see the Holocaust and even the present Gaza war as a fallout of this exclusivity of the Jewish people and the reaction it has brought. So, while receiving the law may appear to be a burden, but when it is turned around to claiming a special status above others. Then it becomes a source of conflict. Just to clarify, I think the Christianity suffers from the same problem when it says that Jesus is the only way and Islam suffers from the same problem when it says that Muhammad was the last and final prophet. So, my concern is that the conflicts that we see in the last 3500 years of human history are substantially based upon this concept of exclusivity, and therefore I think there is a need to reconsider the same. Thank you.
the covenant of Abraham in genesis 15-17

Muhammad was the last and final prophet
Ours @RabbiO

The Covenant of Abraham was spiritual, not racial, right, please?
Same way, Muhammad was last in status on the vertical axis (spiritual), not a last in time (horizontal axis) which has no spiritual significance, one must say, please, right?
Abraham received/gave no Law from G-d, as I understand, so G-d's Covenant with Abraham did not relate to receiving/giving Law from G-d, I understand, please, right?
Right?

Regards
_________________
37:84
And verily of his (Noah's) party was Abraham;
وَاِنَّ مِنۡ شِیۡعَتِہٖ لَاِبۡرٰہِیۡمَ ﴿ۘ۸۴
 
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Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
The Covenant of Abraham was spiritual, not racial, right, please?
God speaks of his descendants. That is not racial but it is biological.
Same way, Muhammad was last in status on the vertical axis (spiritual), not a last in time (horizontal
Agree entirely.
Abraham received/gave no Law from G-d, as I understand, so G-d's Covenant with Abraham did not relate to receiving/giving Law from G-d, I understand, please, right?
God gave him the land of Canaan.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
I stopped about halfway through reading. This was extremely offensive to me. There is nothing "special" or any "higher status" for Jews. There's good Jews and bad Jews just like any other group. We are NOT closer to God than anyone else. The only thing I hate worse than someone stupidly putting me on a pedestal, is someone saying the same things, but meaning it as an accusation that I supposedly claim I'm better than others. What rubbish. I am absolutely disgusted with you, and I'm blocking you so that I don't have to read any more of your self righteous crap.
I never accused you. I am only talking about what I have learned from other Jews claiming. So, I am happy that you do not accept to be a chosen people. And my best wishes. Thank you.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Covenant of Abraham was spiritual, not racial, right, please?
The Covenant with the Jewish people was first given to Abraham, version 1.0, and then enhanced with Moses, version 2.0 We are a People, an ethnicity. Both race and spiritual don't really apply. Race is incorrect because races don't actually exist. Spiritual doesn't work either, because it is not a belief related thing.
Abraham received/gave no Law from G-d, as I understand, so G-d's Covenant with Abraham did not relate to receiving/giving Law from G-d, I understand, please, right?
Please right, at the minimum Abraham received the commandment for circumcision.
And verily of his (Noah's) party was Abraham;
I'm not sure what you are asking. Noah was not given the law, nor was he part of Abraham's covenant. Although Noah is not a historical person, in the story he and his family are the source from which the entire human race descended. But he was not a Jew. Nor was he a prophet or messenger. Does it mean that Abraham would have descended from Noah's family? In the story, yes.
وَاِنَّ مِنۡ شِیۡعَتِہٖ لَاِبۡرٰہِیۡمَ ﴿ۘ۸۴
I don't read Arabic.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
The main covenant was of one god, not circumscision which, anyways, many Jews do not adhere.

Yes I agree with @Bharat Jhunjhunwala about not circumcision and many Jews aren't circumcised.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @John D. Brey

There are many Jews who broke this cycle about circumcision and no longer circumcise their 8-day-old baby boys.

Here's a Facebook page explaining this. Called IntactIsrael


Also Example


Brit milah that's circumcision
Brit Shalom that's no circumcision and the baby keeps their foreskin and are Jews.

Anybody who is a Jew or converts to be a Jew and has a baby boy please look up Brit Shalom that way you can still have your ceremony while your baby can keep his foreskin
Brit shalom keeps the male intact (no circumcision) Also adults who convert to be a Jew they can keep their foreskin.

Here's a website that explains more about Brit Shalom and where you can find a community and doctors and Rabbis who's encouraging baby boys keeping their foreskin and still can be a Jew


A growing list of Rabbis and other celebrants of non-cutting naming ceremonies for Jewish babies. So babies keeps their foreskins and still can be Jewish.

Also there's many Jewish doctors too who's for baby boys to keep their foreskin

Mark D. Reiss, M.D
Please join Bruchim as we honor our friend and colleague Mark D. Reiss, M.D. for his many years of advocating for Jewish families who wish to have brit shalom ceremonies


There's lots of doctors who are Jewish who're for keeping the foreskin and can be Jewish.

Another website showing can be Jewish and keep your foreskin

list of doctors

Jewish Doctors Against Circumcision
Richard Schwartzman, D.O.
Ronald Goldman, Ph.D
Richard Lieberman, M.D.
Mark D. Reiss, M.D.
Dean Edell, M.D.

and there's more there at this website.
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Yes I agree with @Bharat Jhunjhunwala about not circumcision and many Jews aren't circumcised.

"Circumcision" is a word we use to signify a spiritual event or condition. The word "circumcision" is not the thing-in-itself. It's merely a sign we use to signify the thing we label with the word "circumcision."

There are many Jews who broke this cycle about circumcision and no longer circumcise their 8-day-old baby boys.

Brit milah is a ritual which, like the word ("circumcision"), merely signifies, or ritualizes, the spiritual event or condition we label with the word "circumcision," and which we act out ritually through brit milah. Neither the word ("circumcision"), nor the ritual (brit milah) are, or affect, the actuality the word and the ritual merely attempt to manifest is a visible or auditory manner.

Brit milah that's circumcision
Brit Shalom that's no circumcision and the baby keeps their foreskin and are Jews.

In the Hebrew text of the Torah, the so-called "foreskin" (ערלה), is the masculine element of an otherwise female, or generic, human body. Removing a slice of flesh from the penis is, once again, merely to signify, or manifest, that the person where that slice of flesh is removed has, spiritually speaking, eliminated the offensive form of masculinity symbolized by the existence of the phallus (see signature at bottom of message).

Ritually removing a slice of flesh from the penis, i.e., brit milah, doesn't actually remove the offensive form of masculinity. It only symbolizes overcoming the offensive, literally toxic, form of masculinity. A person can remove as much of the penis as they like, even the whole thing, and not remove one iota of the spiritual toxicity the penis, and the slice removed from it, merely represent in a carnal manner. Consequently, a person can retain all of their penis, every bit of it, and still be truly circumcised since the word and the ritual are only the carnal signifiers of a spiritual condition. Since the word and the ritual aren't the spiritual condition (they merely represent the spiritual condition) the spiritual condition can exist without the ritual or the word.

This being the case, a baby can indeed keep the slice of flesh errantly called "foreskin" (ἀκροβυστία), and still have eliminated the toxic form of masculinity (the "foreskin") only symbolized by the penis, and which is only symbolically removed during the ritual when a slice of flesh is ritually removed from the penis. The ritual doesn't guarantee the reality that it merely symbolizes. You can have the reality without the ritual, and you can have the ritual without the reality.



John
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes I agree with @Bharat Jhunjhunwala about not circumcision and many Jews aren't circumcised.
According to a study referenced by the Jewish Virtual Library, circumcision is nearly universally practiced among Jews, with very few exceptions, primarily in communities where Jews are isolated or under oppressive regimes that ban religious practices.

A Jew who is not circumcized is still a Jew. He is simply not compliant with the commandment. Breaking a commandment does not un-Jew someone.
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
According to a study referenced by the Jewish Virtual Library, circumcision is nearly universally practiced among Jews, with very few exceptions, primarily in communities where Jews are isolated or under oppressive regimes that ban religious practices.

The nearly universal practice of ritual circumcision among Jews isn't that surprising when we see that throughout Jewish scripture and writing circumcision is understood to be something like the symbol or even sin qua non of what it is to be Jewish.

A Jew who is no circumcized is still a Jew. He is simply not compliant with the commandment. Breaking a commandment does not un-Jew someone.

Nothing can "un-Jew" someone. Which means Jewishness isn't something related to obeying or breaking a commandment. Since nothing can "un-Jew" you, the identity appears to be non-meritorious, since if you had to perform something to get it, not performing that something would keep you from getting it.

Of course this creates some difficulties in the fact that a convert must do something to get their Jewish identity stamped and authenticated by a male Jew, while someone born Jewish gets their identity from their mother without them doing a darned thing to get it, and without a male Jew participating in any way concerning them obtaining their Jewish identity.

Someone born Jewish gets it from a female Jew with nothing added by a male Jew while someone born a Gentile, such that they must convert to get their Jewishness, gets it from a male Jew with no input from a female Jew. . . Go figure?



John
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. and we read about Joshua asking the people to 'put away the Gods your fathers worshipped' upon crossing the Jordan. I have several books containing relevant information but I want to know what information others have, because I'm finding it very confusing.

- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?

- YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Mose.

- Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped?

- Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel?

- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Etc.
Why is this worth so much attention?
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
"Circumcision" is a word we use to signify a spiritual event or condition. The word "circumcision" is not the thing-in-itself. It's merely a sign we use to signify the thing we label with the word "circumcision."



Brit milah is a ritual which, like the word ("circumcision"), merely signifies, or ritualizes, the spiritual event or condition we label with the word "circumcision," and which we act out ritually through brit milah. Neither the word ("circumcision"), nor the ritual (brit milah) are, or affect, the actuality the word and the ritual merely attempt to manifest is a visible or auditory manner.



In the Hebrew text of the Torah, the so-called "foreskin" (ערלה), is the masculine element of an otherwise female, or generic, human body. Removing a slice of flesh from the penis is, once again, merely to signify, or manifest, that the person where that slice of flesh is removed has, spiritually speaking, eliminated the offensive form of masculinity symbolized by the existence of the phallus (see signature at bottom of message).

Ritually removing a slice of flesh from the penis, i.e., brit milah, doesn't actually remove the offensive form of masculinity. It only symbolizes overcoming the offensive, literally toxic, form of masculinity. A person can remove as much of the penis as they like, even the whole thing, and not remove one iota of the spiritual toxicity the penis, and the slice removed from it, merely represent in a carnal manner. Consequently, a person can retain all of their penis, every bit of it, and still be truly circumcised since the word and the ritual are only the carnal signifiers of a spiritual condition. Since the word and the ritual aren't the spiritual condition (they merely represent the spiritual condition) the spiritual condition can exist without the ritual or the word.

This being the case, a baby can indeed keep the slice of flesh errantly called "foreskin" (ἀκροβυστία), and still have eliminated the toxic form of masculinity (the "foreskin") only symbolized by the penis, and which is only symbolically removed during the ritual when a slice of flesh is ritually removed from the penis. The ritual doesn't guarantee the reality that it merely symbolizes. You can have the reality without the ritual, and you can have the ritual without the reality.



John
Nice post, John. But this is the common problem with all rituals... The cross, idols, kaaba...
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Nice post, John. But this is the common problem with all rituals... The cross, idols, kaaba...

As my spiritual mentor, Col. R.B. Thieme Jr., frequently pointed out, ritual without reality is meaningless. Whereas the cross symbolizes the reality that is, for Christians, the death of the son of God, what does circumcision symbolize for Jews? What's the reality that that ritual, brit milah, symbolizes?



John
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Of course this creates some difficulties in the fact that a convert must do something to get their Jewish identity stamped and authenticated by a male Jew, while someone born Jewish gets their identity from their mother without them doing a darned thing to get it, and without a male Jew participating in any way concerning them obtaining their Jewish identity.
That is quite true. Except of course in the case of converts. The rabbis only accept those who will make excellent Jews, not mediocre Jews.
Someone born Jewish gets it from a female Jew with nothing added by a male Jew while someone born a Gentile, such that they must convert to get their Jewishness, gets it from a male Jew with no input from a female Jew. . . Go figure?
I find it odd that you keep referring to circumcision being done by male Jews. While mohel is traditionally a male position, that is changing. A minority of women are mohelim, and it is growing.
 
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