• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What was the American Revolution really about?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Rather than threadjack another thread with an off-topic tangent, I decided to start a new thread about the reasons behind the American Revolution.

I think our Constitution, "spirit of 1776" is quite devoted to protect and identify our liberties and freedoms. The Revolution and desire for independence are how and why it was born. It began as a protest against taxation with no representation.
It began as a refusal by the American colonies to pay their fair share of the cost of defending them from French invasion during the Seven Years' War.

It then turned into an assault on political and religious freedom as people of differing views from the Revolutionaries, such as Loyalists and religious pacifists, were harassed and in many cases driven from their homes.

Have you ever wondered why Canada didn't join in the Revolution? It wasn't because the people in Canada were any more free or any less interested in being free. It was because the economy in the 13 Colonies was based more around major private landowners and business owners who stood to benefit financially from separating from Britain.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I once took a mid-level university course on some of the origins -- ideological, economic, social, and political -- of the American Revolution as viewed by both some British and American scholars. It's been decades, and I've forgotten most of the course, but I still remember just enough of it to know the origins were quite arguably a wee bit more complex and nuanced than either view expressed in the OP.

For one thing, I seem to recall that different groups and individuals often enough had different motives. Neither the motives of the American elites, nor the motives of the common folk (who supported the elites often for their own reasons) were monolithic; and the often clumsy British responses to Colonial grievances are recognized by scholars on both sides of the Atlantic as greatly contributing to the outbreak of hostilities. Not that the Colonials suffered in silence without doing their best to provoke the British. So, some of the causes go beyond relatively simple, straight-forward motives and involve each side helping to ramp up the other.

But like I said, it's been a long time since I studied the subject in any detail and I've forgotten most of it by now.
 
Last edited:

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
By the way, it just came back to me that -- during the build up to the Revolution -- most of the members of the British Parliament were a bit too dense to fully grasp the Colonist's reasoning behind that famous catch-phrase, "No taxation without representation". They were just as quick as politicians are today to rationalize away the opposition's views. It was only later, as I recall now, after guys like Edmund Burke had explained it to them, that a significant number of members finally conceded the Colonists had a point. By then, however, the Colonists were the Revolutionaries, and there was no going back. But maybe my memory is faulty on that.
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It began as a refusal by the American colonies to pay their fair share of the cost of defending them from French invasion during the Seven Years' War.
It began with the settling of the US itself which was largely motivated by various kinds of discontent with Imperial/Royal policy, and the intellectual motivations of those who were most responsible for the origins and outcome of the American revolution borrowed heavily upon European thought (itself heavily dependent upon classical thought). It is undoubtedly true that the Seven Years War played an important (arguably essential) role in the dynamics that ended with revolution. To say that it was either the beginning of these dynamics, the original motivation for revolutionary thoughts, or anything other than some factors out of a large number that occurred both before and after the war is simply historically indefensible.

Have you ever wondered why Canada didn't join in the Revolution?

I don't know, maybe because Canada "was not constituted as a nation until more than 90 years after the American Declaration of Independence and more than 80 years after the Revolutionary War itself"

Grabb, E., Curtis, J., & Baer, D. (2000). Defining moments and recurring myths: Comparing canadians and americans after the american revolution. The Canadian Review of Sociology and Anthropology, 37(4), 373-419.

From Lipset's initial work onward, the dynamics of Canadian Loyalism/Toryism have been rather thoroughly explored.

It wasn't because the people in Canada were any more free or any less interested in being free.
"In the Canadian accounts of the American Revolution and its aftermath, we also find examples of mythmaking. The most notable illustrations for the present paper are those involving "the Loyalist myth." Many researchers have pointed to the ways in which later observers, including Lipset, have mythologized the Loyalists, treating them as the stalwart bearers and defenders of traditional tory values when, as we have seen, the majority of them were not like this (e.g., Bell and Tepperman, 1979: 77-82; Thompson and Randall, 1994: 16; Gwyn, 1985: 17-19, 167; see also Upton, 1971: 52-53; Noel, 1990: 50; Craig, 1963: 7). Others have likewise discussed the related myths arising from the War of 1812, including the ways that later commentators seriously overstated the strength of support for this conflict in both the Canadian and the American populations (see, e.g., Errington, 1994: 92, 102; Stuart, 1988: 65-66; Clark, 1968: 223: Wilson, 1971: 128-29; Craig, 1963: 67, 70-75)."


It was because the economy in the 13 Colonies was based more around major private landowners and business owners who stood to benefit financially from separating from Britain.

"In the Canadian accounts of the American Revolution and its aftermath, we also find examples of mythmaking" (ibid.)

This is so ridiculously inadequate. The fact that Canadians have re-interpreted their own history so that they can define themselves as a national entity during the American revolution despite the fact that it took about a century for a Canadian nation to exist such that it could be defined in relation to a US nation notwithstanding, there was no "Canada" to participate in the American revolution. Whether Canadians lacked a sufficiently defined cultural/national identity, or the level of loyalist inclinations prevalent at the time, or any number of mainstream theories as to why Canada was incapable of achieving independence despite the fact that "the American Revolution could have marked the historical beginnings of both countries" (ibid.), the fact is that we have a rather extensive amount of literature attesting to Canadian mythmaking in order to explain their lack of involvement in the US revolution as well as the lack of any comparable movement within Canada itself.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It began as a refusal by the American colonies to pay their fair share of the cost of defending them from French invasion during the Seven Years' War.
It then turned into an assault on political and religious freedom as people of differing views from the Revolutionaries, such as Loyalists and religious pacifists, were harassed and in many cases driven from their homes.
Have you ever wondered why Canada didn't join in the Revolution? It wasn't because the people in Canada were any more free or any less interested in being free. It was because the economy in the 13 Colonies was based more around major private landowners and business owners who stood to benefit financially from separating from Britain.
Leave it to a Canuckistanian to find a leftish reason for the revolution, ie, we didn't want to pay our "fair share".
No, the real, the ultimate, the definitive reason for revolting was the British embargo on exporting any
of their machine tool & manufacturing technology, be it by machine, drawing or person. But it backfired.
Not only did we kick their arsches out, but by the 1830s we far more technologically advanced than they.
(This is history from the perspective of a machine tool collector.)
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't know, maybe because Canada "was not constituted as a nation until more than 90 years after the American Declaration of Independence and more than 80 years after the Revolutionary War itself"
I didn't say "the nation of Canada". The term "Canada" has been applied to a geographic region since Jacques Cartier.

I thought my intended meaning was obvious, but apparently it wasn't so for everyone.

By "Canada", I meant "the British colonies lying in the area of modern-day Canada." Specifically, the colonies of Quebec (which included much of modern-day Ontario) and Nova Scotia (which included modern-day New Brunswick).

Out of 15 colonies (16 if you include Newfoundland), only 13 of them rebelled. The revolutionaries tried to get Quebec and Nova Scotia to rebel as well, but they stayed British. Why?
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
We really can't get into the minds of people 100's of years ago and we will each twist what we do know into what we believe now.

To me, the spirit of 76 was against taxation basically. Now, the spirit still exists with the TEA party.

Back then, only land owners could vote, you know only the ones with skin in the game.

When you let folks with no skin in the game vote that others pay more so they can get additional stuff from the government, that is what is railed against.

I know, we need roads and such, blah blah blah.

The issue is, the size and scope of government.

I guess it boils down to if you think bigger government is a good thing or not.

Bigger government is starting to annoy Liberals as well now. Privacy has become an issue for many.

I think more taxation is akin to feeding a bear.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
We really can't get into the minds of people 100's of years ago...
We can.

...and we will each twist what we do know into what we believe now.
We will.

Certainly, it's a far more complex picture than we learned in grade school.
But even without agreement, it's interesting to see all the different factors
leading to the revolution. The best thing about it? Not religious freedom.
Not tax avoidance. Not even giving the monarchy the boot. No, it's that
our courtrooms aren't filled with swishy fops wearing powdered wigs.
 
Last edited:

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
What really chaps my behind is that this over stuffed government we have now neglects to do their basic duties. You know defend our borders and protect our sovereignty
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What really chaps my behind is that this over stuffed government we have now neglects to do their basic duties. You know defend our borders and protect our sovereignty
I'll add to this their intentional erosion of civil liberties in some areas, eg, privacy, property rights.
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
By the way, it just came back to me that -- during the build up to the Revolution -- most of the members of the British Parliament were a bit too dense to fully grasp the Colonist's reasoning behind that famous catch-phrase, "No taxation without representation". They were just as quick as politicians are today to rationalize away the opposition's views. It was only later, as I recall now, after guys like Edmund Burke had explained it to them, that a significant number of members finally conceded the Colonists had a point. By then, however, the Colonists were the Revolutionaries, and there was no going back. But maybe my memory is faulty on that.
But this is still something that the American colonies had in common with all the colonies that didn't rebel. There was very little representation in Britain itself at the time. The Revolution didn't take hold in Canada, despite the fact that the Canadian colonies didn't have any more representation than the American ones.

... or in the Caribbean, for that matter. While the Americans and French engaged the British Navy quite a bit in the Caribbean and staged several landings and invasions, the colonists there didn't flock to the Revolution the way they did in the 13 colonies on the continent.

The Revolutionaries tried very hard to get the Revolution to spread beyond the 13 colonies, but they were unsuccessful. I think this suggests that the reason the Revolution did take hold in America lies in the differences between the colonies that rebelled and the ones that didn't. All of them had the same level of representation, so that suggests to me that the reasons for the Revolution lie elsewhere.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
But this is still something that the American colonies had in common with all the colonies that didn't rebel. There was very little representation in Britain itself at the time. The Revolution didn't take hold in Canada, despite the fact that the Canadian colonies didn't have any more representation than the American ones.

... or in the Caribbean, for that matter. While the Americans and French engaged the British Navy quite a bit in the Caribbean and staged several landings and invasions, the colonists there didn't flock to the Revolution the way they did in the 13 colonies on the continent.

The Revolutionaries tried very hard to get the Revolution to spread beyond the 13 colonies, but they were unsuccessful. I think this suggests that the reason the Revolution did take hold in America lies in the differences between the colonies that rebelled and the ones that didn't. All of them had the same level of representation, so that suggests to me that the reasons for the Revolution lie elsewhere.

May I strongly suggest to you that you cease trying convince me that the issue of taxation without representation could not have been a significant factor at play in the 13 colonies merely because the Canadian and the Caribbean Colonies did not rebel? Such a notion assumes that the issue of taxation without representation could only have been a significant factor if it was the only factor. Has the folly of that assumption escaped your attention?

Anyone who has been taught the American Revolution was caused by just one or two factors was taught by moronic dolts or, worse, by a thing worse than a moronic dolt: Glenn Beck.
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
May I strongly suggest to you that you cease trying convince me that the issue of taxation without representation could not have been a significant factor at play in the 13 colonies merely because the Canadian and the Caribbean Colonies did not rebel? Such a notion assumes that the issue of taxation without representation could only have been a significant factor if it was the only factor. Has the folly of that assumption escaped your attention?

Anyone who has been taught the American Revolution was caused by just one or two factors was taught by moronic dolts or, worse, by a thing worse than a moronic dolt: Glenn Beck.

Either I've done a bad job of communcating my intended meaning or you're misunderstanding me. My point was that simplisticly pointing to taxation without representation as the main cause of the Revolution has problems. This doesn't mean that it wasn't part of the causes, only that it alone can't explain what happened.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
What I don't understand, is how people can look at what we've been told the early Americans fought for, things like freedom, a government ruled by the people, etc., and today let our government do the same things we accused the British of back then.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Either I've done a bad job of communcating my intended meaning or you're misunderstanding me. My point was that simplisticly pointing to taxation without representation as the main cause of the Revolution has problems. This doesn't mean that it wasn't part of the causes, only that it alone can't explain what happened.

OK, thanks for the clarification. I think I see what you're saying now.

So far as I'm concerned, no one thing -- nor even any two or three things -- fully explains the causes of the Revolution.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
What I don't understand, is how people can look at what we've been told the early Americans fought for, things like freedom, a government ruled by the people, etc., and today let our government do the same things we accused the British of back then.

History ain't nothing if not ironic.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What I don't understand, is how people can look at what we've been told the early Americans fought for, things like freedom, a government ruled by the people, etc., and today let our government do the same things we accused the British of back then.
Government overthrow is a messy process. Even beforehand, we were over-regulating ourselves & religiously oppressing ourselves (various times & places).
 
Top