What was the Death of Jesus about?

[blü 2]

No, here this 'template' is nothing more than trying to 'explain away' as best as possible

So ─ given a benevolent and omnipotent God ─ why did Jesus have to die?

 

[Dave Watchman]

Ah, so ─ you're saying ─ God is NOT benevolent but malicious, NOT magnanimous but petty ... but isn't it self-contradictory that such a nasty individual would go out of [his] way to let humans off the hook at all?

Though I agree it would account for the cruelty.

I'm of the theory that it was Eve.

Adam's love for her. He knew they were in serious trouble. They probably would not make it. But he couldn't let her face it alone. He would rather suffer her fate, than to watch her die that day alone.

If I were omniscient and omnipotent and perfect and benevolent ─ if I've had any successes, they might be with benevolence ─ I'd have perfectly known before I made the universe everything that would ever happen in it, so I must have (in an aberrant moment of spite or boredom) intended the cruelty gratuitously.

I tend to read it as the pre incarnate Christ being the God of the Old Testament.

But that the Father has the foreknowledge. He can peer down through the corridors of time and pick out the people to be drawn to a belief in the Son.

Can you think of any other explanation?

But maybe there are twists to the plot. Maybe we can display behavior that not as much surprises God, but impresses or fascinates Him in the work of His hands.

Something that would cause redeemed humanity to be a little higher than the angels? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? And therefore worth the trouble?

"In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.​

To the Pioneer of our salvation.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[John1.12]

Sure, But WHY did God so decide?

If we don't understand why it HAD to be a tormented death then we don't understand anything.

It was also the greatest event in history and the greatest demonstration of love .

 

[blü 2]

It was also the greatest event in history and the greatest demonstration of love .

So Jesus sets out to get himself killed by crucifixion, refuses opportunities to escape, succeeds in getting killed, pushes the blame onto the Jews, and calls it a good weekend's work, right?

Never such love, right?

Why? Why? Why?

 

[Colt]

So Jesus sets out to get himself killed by crucifixion, refuses opportunities to escape, succeeds in getting killed, pushes the blame onto the Jews, and calls it a good weekend's work, right?

Never such love, right?

Why? Why? Why?

No, he set out to live the human experience. Then he tried to carry his gospel to the Jews who had been chosen to receive it. They rejected it and had Jesus killed. He returned from the grave and appeared to believers.

The fact that the Jews had blood on their hands is no ones fault but their own.

 

[John1.12]

So Jesus sets out to get himself killed by crucifixion, refuses opportunities to escape, succeeds in getting killed, pushes the blame onto the Jews, and calls it a good weekend's work, right?

Never such love, right?

Why? Why? Why?

I believe these verses address your questions .
John 10:18

“No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”

Rom 5


6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

(Gen. 3:1–19 )
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20¶Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[blü 2]

I believe these verses address your questions .
John 10:18

“No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”

How does that explain WHY Jesus had to die? He says he already has that power, and anyway it's been available direct from God up till then.

Rom 5
6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Saved from wrath? God knows [he] has a foul temper so [he] sends [his] delegate to serve as a buffer?

But why would it be necessary for the delegate to die?

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

BUT WHY DOES THE DELEGATE HAVE TO DIE?

 

[blü 2]

No, he set out to live the human experience. Then he tried to carry his gospel to the Jews who had been chosen to receive it. They rejected it

You'd have rejected it to if you'd been in their shoes, wouldn't you? As you know, "messiah" means "one anointed by the Jewish priesthood" for being an important civil, military or religious leader of the Jews ─ and Jesus was never any of those things and Jesus was never anointed. So you wouldn't have paid much attention to some guy in the street who said, "I'm the son of God and the world as you know it will end shortly," would you?

and had Jesus killed. He returned from the grave and appeared to believers.

But Jesus' mission was to exactly that, to get himself killed. You can hardly blame the Jews if he lured them into obliging him, can you? Look at all the chances to escape that he deliberately refused to take,

The fact that the Jews had blood on their hands is no ones fault but their own.

That's not what the story says. Instead it says what I said in my previous para.

Which brings us back to where we started? WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die? What did it achieve that a benevolent omnipotent God couldn't achieve bloodlessly?

 

[Colt]

You'd have rejected it to if you'd been in their shoes, wouldn't you? As you know, "messiah" means "one anointed by the Jewish priesthood" for being an important civil, military or religious leader of the Jews ─ and Jesus was never any of those things and Jesus was never anointed. So you wouldn't have paid much attention to some guy in the street who said, "I'm the son of God and the world as you know it will end shortly," would you?
But Jesus' mission was to exactly that, to get himself killed. You can hardly blame the Jews if he lured them into obliging him, can you? Look at all the chances to escape that he deliberately refused to take,
That's not what the story says. Instead it says what I said in my previous para.

The Jews developed wrong ideas about a Messiah and a material kingdom. Jesus was a spiritual teacher who taught a spiritual kingdom.

You keep saying that Jesus came to be killed, that's simply not true.

If Jesus vanished on his own then his message may have been lost. The resurrection was his last and most spectacular miracle which provided a huge boost to the faith of the apostles. Some of the apostles gave up their lives as well and many more Christians.

 

[John1.12]

You'd have rejected it to if you'd been in their shoes, wouldn't you? As you know, "messiah" means "one anointed by the Jewish priesthood" for being an important civil, military or religious leader of the Jews ─ and Jesus was never any of those things and Jesus was never anointed. So you wouldn't have paid much attention to some guy in the street who said, "I'm the son of God and the world as you know it will end shortly," would you?
But Jesus' mission was to exactly that, to get himself killed. You can hardly blame the Jews if he lured them into obliging him, can you? Look at all the chances to escape that he deliberately refused to take,
That's not what the story says. Instead it says what I said in my previous para.

Which brings us back to where we started? WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die? What did it achieve that a benevolent omnipotent God couldn't achieve bloodlessly?

A part of this i see ,demonstrates who he is , his love, mercy and glory . I'm just grateful he did .

 

[John1.12]

You'd have rejected it to if you'd been in their shoes, wouldn't you? As you know, "messiah" means "one anointed by the Jewish priesthood" for being an important civil, military or religious leader of the Jews ─ and Jesus was never any of those things and Jesus was never anointed. So you wouldn't have paid much attention to some guy in the street who said, "I'm the son of God and the world as you know it will end shortly," would you?
But Jesus' mission was to exactly that, to get himself killed. You can hardly blame the Jews if he lured them into obliging him, can you? Look at all the chances to escape that he deliberately refused to take,
That's not what the story says. Instead it says what I said in my previous para.

Which brings us back to where we started? WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die? What did it achieve that a benevolent omnipotent God couldn't achieve bloodlessly?

If you want the inner working details of what Jesus accomplished through his life on the cross, through his burial , then resurrection, wow ! this would take a life time and we still wouldn't have all the details . I mean to fully understand and grasp . So its a bit rich to say " oh why didn't he just snap his fingers " . Muslims say this all the time " why didn't God just forgive ? " its because their god is arbitrary and capricious.This is why we have the bible. To come to know God and understand .

 

[F1fan]

I'm of the theory that it was Eve.

Adam's love for her. He knew they were in serious trouble. They probably would not make it. But he couldn't let her face it alone. He would rather suffer her fate, than to watch her die that day alone.
.

And where is this in Genesis?

 

[Dave Watchman]

And where is this in Genesis?

It's a theory.

A deduction.

A hypothesis.

Can you envision a scenario where, after finding Eve weeping with the partially eaten fruit in her hand, Adam telling her: "wow Eve, you've really screwed up now. I gotta go. I need to put some space between us."

I can't.

If Adam was a thug, God might have ended the whole demonstration right there.

But she was the bone of his bones, the flesh of his flesh.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[F1fan]

It's a theory.

A deduction.

A hypothesis.

Can you envision a scenario where, after finding Eve weeping with the partially eaten fruit in her hand, Adam telling her: "wow Eve, you've really screwed up now. I gotta go. I need to put some space between us."

I can't.

If Adam was a thug, God might have ended the whole demonstration right there.

But she was the bone of his bones, the flesh of his flesh.

Peaceful Sabbath.

So the stories are inadequate and you're adding to the content?

Let's note that if God is perfect it will create exactly what it wants. If it wanted some other outcome to the fate of A&E then it should have designed them the way it wanted. The story implies that God was caught off guard by A&E's behavior. That's bad luck.

 

[F1fan]

The Jews developed wrong ideas about a Messiah and a material kingdom. Jesus was a spiritual teacher who taught a spiritual kingdom.

So why did God let the Hebrews go so long with the wrong idea, and wasn't more clear in the Bible? 3000 years is a long time to let a mistake go, don't you think?

You keep saying that Jesus came to be killed, that's simply not true.

Do you think God was caught off guard when Jesus was killed?

If Jesus vanished on his own then his message may have been lost. The resurrection was his last and most spectacular miracle which provided a huge boost to the faith of the apostles. Some of the apostles gave up their lives as well and many more Christians.

So Jesus being killed WAS part of the plan.

 

[Colt]

So why did God let the Hebrews go so long with the wrong idea, and wasn't more clear in the Bible? 3000 years is a long time to let a mistake go, don't you think?


Do you think God was caught off guard when Jesus was killed?


So Jesus being killed WAS part of the plan.

As religions evolve we are free to speculate and grow in understanding without God micromanaging everything. Teachers and prophets are sent, we interpret things on our own.

Killing Jesus wasn't part of the original plan or will of God. The cross seems to be plan B which developed after the rejection of the Original, pre-cross Gospel that Jesus preached to the Jews.

 

[Dave Watchman]

So the stories are inadequate and you're adding to the content?

Not so much inadequate, just some dots to connect. Or blanks to fill in.

Let's note that if God is perfect it will create exactly what it wants. If it wanted some other outcome to the fate of A&E then it should have designed them the way it wanted. The story implies that God was caught off guard by A&E's behavior. That's bad luck.

I know, that's what the Atheists say. If God was so smart, He would have made a perfect world.

It could be that, from time to time, the work of His hand pleases Him.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Can you think of any other explanation?

Free movie on Tubi.

The God Who Speaks

Speed it up to the 31:00 minute mark:

"When you think about where the New Testament came from It came out of Judaism. Why would these Jewish believers, who thought they were God's chosen people, why would they invent a resurrected Jesus? What motivation would they have for that? Why would they invent this? It makes no sense at all.

"I mean if one of them said: "Hey we're gonna start a new religion. And one of the others said: "We are? Yeah, what's it gonna get us? Well, first of all we're gonna get kicked out of the Synagogue. And then we're gonna get beaten, tortured and killed. Do you think the other guy's gonna go: "hey great idea, sign me up.

"There's NO motivation for JEWS to have invented a resurrected Jesus.

The God Who Speaks (2018)​

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[F1fan]

As religions evolve we are free to speculate and grow in understanding without God micromanaging everything. Teachers and prophets are sent, we interpret things on our own.

Monty Python's Life of Brian explained how this works.

Killing Jesus wasn't part of the original plan or will of God. The cross seems to be plan B which developed after the rejection of the Original, pre-cross Gospel that Jesus preached to the Jews.

So God was caught off guard, and didn't foresee the future events.

 

[F1fan]

Not so much inadequate, just some dots to connect. Or blanks to fill in.

Adds a lot of confusion and uncertainty.

I know, that's what the Atheists say. If God was so smart, He would have made a perfect world.

It could be that, from time to time, the work of His hand pleases Him.

Peaceful Sabbath.

The explanations by believers suggest God is more like a fallible, ordinary human than omniscient and perfect.