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What was the Leviathan?
- Thread starter The Fog Horn
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I have done so, contrary to your suspicion.
In fact, I'm using the exact same type of reasoning that is supposed to be used: cross-examination of a hypothesis. If yours cannot stand up to scrutiny, there's no reason for me to take it seriously.
No, it isn't. I've provided you with an alternative explanation. As long as alternative explanations are not only possible, but probable, no hypothesis can be a theory. Read my response to your next comment for further questioning.
You're telling me to simplify a field that is anything but simple. Sorry, but I can't do that.
Tell me: just how deep are the underwater volcanoes in that area? Depending on their depth, the visible effects of them is going to differ. What would the ancients have seen when they erupted? Well that question is fairly easy to answer: what do people nowadays who live in the area see when those volcanoes erupt?
The Fog Horn
Active Member
Every 'underwater' volcano. Land volcanoes were worshipped. Yahweh was a volcano god. Mount Sinai was a volcano.
This all makes perfect sense as the Leviathan was said to be the arch enemy of Yahweh and arch enemies are usually uncannily similar.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I think you missed my main point. I think the identity, or the origin of the idea of identity is irrelevant. Job is not a historical book, nor a scientific one. It is a theological argument. It does use factual ideas, but it also uses mythological ideas as well. What the actual identity of each character is really is irrelevant as Job is not describing something new, but relying on older ideas.
Now, if we look elsewhere in the Hebrew scriptures for Leviathan, we see that it is usually described as a sea serpent. None of these times do we really see it as being a factual entity. It is meant as a symbolic entity, and as I stated before, if we look at sea serpents in mythology, especially in the Ancient Near East, they generally represent chaos. And it is the symbology that the author of Job was using. The author was using standard mythological ideas in order to show a point.
As for seeing Leviathan originating as a crocodile, but then having mythological elements added to it, it actually makes quite a bit of sense. It is actually quite common. There are tons of stories of mythological animals, that really do stem from actual animals. Many times, this process ends up with mass exaggerations in the description of the animal.
Looking at the Nile crocodile, it fits the bill here. One first has to remember that the author would not have had direct contact with such an animal. Where he was writing, the Nile crocodile was not found. If we look at Job, the verses you cited, we see standard serpent mythology. Breathing fire/smoke is standard. We see it constantly in serpent mythology.
The things really sticking out are the many teeth (volcanos don't have teeth), and the armor like skin (or scales). On crocodiles, it is very easy to see the teeth. As for the scales of the crocodile, they are very tough, like a shield. During that time, and even today, people didn't mess with the crocodile. When they raise up (and yes, they do so) from the water, and they are seen, they are a terrible sight to behold. It would be like death staring you in the face. And that holds true today.
Sure, it is possible to catch a crocodile, but even today, with modern methods, it still is very dangerous. Often, while in the water, spears and arrows will bounce off of their skin because one, water does that, and two, their skin is quite tough. It would not have been an animal to be messed with. And again, the beast was exaggerated, and in ways that are quite standard to serpent mythology.
And no, I'm not saying the Bible makes things up for the hell of it. I'm saying that the author of Job used standard mythology to make a point. He was using Leviathan as it represented chaos. It represented something that his readers would have known based on the other mythology surrounding the entity.
As for the idea that Leviathan was an underwater volcano, in just what area would this have been? According to the website I assume you are getting some of this information from, it doesn't actually state for certain that there was volcanic activity in the area. It says there probably was some underwater volcanoes in the Sea of Galilee (which it supplies no actual evidence for), but other than that, doesn't show where in Israel this would have occurred (besides the Dead Sea, but this wasn't an area that was heavily populated, and would not have led to such a wide belief).
So without evidence that there were underwater volcanoes in the area, your argument does have a serious flaw.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Leviathan wasn't the archenemy of Yahweh. The Bible never says that. Instead, we are told that God created everything, and everything was good. Even in Job, we are reassured that everything has it's place, and that God did in fact create good. It becomes very clear that God created Leviathan, could control Leviathan, and was part of God's great creation. There is no real suggestion that they are enemies.
The Fog Horn
Active Member
You are purposely ignoring all the things for the theory and hoping to find something else more to your liking.
[youtube]xGocBeoCXf8[/youtube]
Volcano creates new island in the Red Sea.flv - YouTube
[youtube]CWcn0uBWbHU[/youtube]
Red Sea Underwater Volcano eruption - Birth of an Island 2012 - YouTube
Leviathan was not the archenemy of God, it does not say that. Stories say that God feared that if the Leviathans reproduced they would destroy the world, so he killed the female (or male, either way). The other one would be killed at the end of times and eaten. I do not know of that is in the scriptures, I just know it's part of the Leviathan myth. Falling Blood is right, God saw that everything was good. That's from His perspective, not ours. Just like Samael is the left hand of God in myths, whom men perceive as evil, everything has a purpose. If God is all, that includes what humans call both good and evil.
The Fog Horn
Active Member
Psalm 74:14 It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert.
Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
God was also said to have made the Egyptian Pharoah take so long to give the Hebrews their freedom. He is also said to have made the Hebrews wander around the desert for forty years. He was said to have been the designer of all sorts of horrible things and caused lots of human suffering.
What a load of rubbish. Please read Oh My Volcano' blog for some home truths and then you will start to live in peace.
outhouse
Atheistically
im sorry but we need sources for this, and eruption dates.
there are many areas with much more volcanic activity then this area.
how many underwater volcanos exist now off the coast of Israel?
your on a one man tour through imagination and fantasy trying to tweak mythology into reality.
What, exactly, am I ignoring? I'm simply cross-examining your hypothesis, which is what is done in this field.
Are you saying that the questions that I'm asking are already answered in your above posts?
If it makes you feel better, this hypothesis of yours actually does have some merit. Certainly better than your hypothesis that El and YHWH are volcano gods.
Cool. Is there something from the Bible that says the Leviathan creates islands?
There's actually another relevant question to determine the origin of Leviathan. Are there similar creatures in other cultures? (Hint: the answer is yes.)
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Blogs are not reliable sources of scientific information.
Rather, you should be linking to whatever the blog links to for its sources.
I think your volcano theory is decent but far from solid. I do think that if your facts check out it's a valid argument, but just as valid as a nile croc. In the end, does it even really matter? The Leviathan is a mythological creature, a symbol, more meaningful than whatever it is based off of in myths. It doen't matter where it comes from as much as what it represents.
The Fog Horn
Active Member
It is a reflection of the mindset of the ancient Hebrews and it is a reflection of Yahweh himself. The ancient Hebrews anthropomorphised underwater volcanoes just as they did land volcanoes, only with very different results...the former becoming part of the enemy set and the latter being worshipped.
Ignorant minds + volcanic habitat = volcano worship.
Who says YHVH was a volcano?
It's another hypothesis that he went on and on and on about roughly a year ago, that nobody really took seriously. Apparently, he's since posted the hypothesis all over the internet.
I think the currently accepted theory is that YHWH was originally a Storm God.
Ah, see now I have to reject the OP's argument. I could see Leviathan perhaps being an underwater volcano, but the rest shows a great ignorance of Leviathan and Jewish beliefs in general. The OP should stick to the basic and unimportant theory that perhaps the mythological Leviathan was based on a volcano. I thought this was as simple as that, apparently it isn't.
Orias
Left Hand Path
Leviathan is the primal serpent of the abyss, from which man descended from.
One of the many gateways to the Black Flame.
Symbolically, sure. What makes you think that's true? I think it's high time to re-open the discussion on Leviathan in the DIR.
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