I stand corrected. I must admit that I am surprised to read that.
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What would a reformed Islam look like?
- Thread starter Laika
- Start date
firedragon
Veteran Member
Ah come on, Adnan Ibrahim?
firedragon
Veteran Member
If the analysis is right.....
Nevertheless, you dont like Adnan? Alright, how about Hassan? Lol
@firedragon - OK, thanks 
I watched good old Adnan in the end, I'll have a look at Hassan later too!
I am not sure Adnan entirely answered my question though. He was saying about why hadith was no good, not so much what the social implications of rejecting it are. For example, what is the impact of being Qur'an-only on Muslims' stances of the application of sharia law, on relationships with kuffar, on social organisation, on the treatment of women...?
I watched good old Adnan in the end, I'll have a look at Hassan later too!I am not sure Adnan entirely answered my question though. He was saying about why hadith was no good, not so much what the social implications of rejecting it are. For example, what is the impact of being Qur'an-only on Muslims' stances of the application of sharia law, on relationships with kuffar, on social organisation, on the treatment of women...?
Notanumber
A Free Man
The only thing that made any sense was when he said “Someone may think: what are you trying to say adnan?”
Reading between the lines, what he appears to be saying is that Islamic text is rubbish and only a fool would try to defend it.
He's talking about hadith vs. Qur'an, and taking the hadith as authoritative alongside the Qur'an.
firedragon
Veteran Member
@firedragon - OK, thanks
I am not sure Adnan entirely answered my question though. He was saying about why hadith was no good, not so much what the social implications of rejecting it are. For example, what is the impact of being Qur'an-only on Muslims' stances of the application of sharia law, on relationships with kuffar, on social organisation, on the treatment of women...?
A Kafir is not what you think?
I have witnessed many discussions, both face to face and remote where some Muslims call Christians and Jews as Kafirs and Christians and Jews call themselves Kafirs. We should understand what Kafir means from the context of the Quran and the language at the time the Quran was revealed.
This word Kafir has evolved in its meaning and understanding due to worldly occurrences. The phenomenon that changed the meaning of this word is debatable and bears no value of discussion, but the fact is not only Christians or Jews are called Kafirs, Muslims are too.
It is personal experience of us Muslims to hear one sect call another sect by the word Kafir. Animosity of this nature exists in this world and if everyone is correct, there are seven billion Kafirs in this world.
A simile of the evolution of what this word means is cops being called pigs in modern times. The original use of the derogative term pig being used on cops is known to have occurred in around the 1811 where "pig" was denoted to a Bow Street Runner, the police force. The reference has seemingly re-emerged in the late sixties. The modern dictionaries pronounce it as a slang for a policeman.
Is it not unbelievable that within such a short time a word that was referred to a swine has grown to be referred to a cop? Similarly, think of the word Kafir evolving through 1400 years. This is also similar to the words ‘Hijab’ and ‘Khimar’ discussed in the chapters analysing women’s dress code.
A Kafir is someone who knows a truth and hides it
The first occurrences of the term Kafir occurs in the second chapter of the
Quran.
· As for those who Kafaroo , whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. – Quran 2:6
· Or like a storm cloud from the sky, in it is darkness and thunder and lightning.
They place their fingers in their ears from the thunder-claps for fear of death;
and God is aware of the Kafirs (Bialkafireena). – Quran 2:19
An exploration of the chapter in concern in context of the surrounding verse will expound the true intention of this allusion. Below you will find a summary of this chapter’s philosophy.
· The Quran is revealed to the righteous, who believe in the unseen, who believe in this and the previous revelations.
· As for those who see the truth and hide it maliciously commonly
referred to as rejecter’s they will not believe in the truth if you inform them or not
· Their hearts and ears are sealed, and they are blind. They will proclaim
to believe in God and there’s a last day but only lie.
· They will claim to be good but the will spread corruption. When they meet those who acknowledge the truth they lie saying they do too
There are no references to religions, races or any denomination. A Kafir could be a person who calls himself a Muslim as you can see above that when a Kafir meets one who has acknowledged the truth they lie to you saying they also do accept the truth. Right at the beginning of the Quran God has explained what a Kafir is, therefore it is high time that Muslims woke up and realised that we have been mistaken all our lives.
Of course it is common that most of us were taught otherwise throughout our lives. The Quran tells you to not follow what your society has taught you blindly.
· And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. – Quran 6:115
And don’t worry if others don’t believe
· And most of the people, even if you are diligent, will not believe. – Quran
12:103
“Male ego is a ghastly fact”
Is it irony or purposeful craft for the Quran to contain the singular form of reference to women and men cited exactly 24 times each? Man is mentioned
24 times and the woman is mentioned 24 times. But lo and behold, the earthly practice is for the man to be much more superior to a woman whilst the so called divine revelation does not even discriminate one gender by mentioning them in lesser instances than the other.
The Quran preaches equitability between men and women. It recognises the differences and respects those differences and clearly commands a harmonious and satisfactory lifestyle. Though misinterpreted, maliciously quoted out of context and egoistic renditions done by some bias scholars, the Quran elevates the place of a woman in society and the world at large.
In fact, the Quran is a book that explicitly elevates a woman or rather establishes the equal eminence between men and women in Gods eyes. It will come as a surprise for most readers to hear what the bible has to say instead.
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. – Corinthians 11:2
That is not meant to denounce Christianity but to show that before a judgment call is made, you must look at your own scripture.
· “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in someone else’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from the other person’s eye. – Matthew 7:3
But acknowledgement must be made that most countries with Christian majority have been constructed based on secular and more liberal ideologies and do not establish unequal laws between sexes. Nor does Jesus, being the pure word of god, teach inequity between men and women. It is some Muslim countries and societies that practice unequal laws going against their own scripture.
Women are your Tilth
· Your women are a Tilth for you. So approach your Tilth as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers. – Quran 2:223
This verse is addressing the man and tells him that women are your Tilth. The word Tilth or “Ĥarthun Lakum” means a cultivation, where you were born or grown from and where your future generations or children will be conceived. Many “MEN” have understood this to mean as your cultivation where you plant your seed and that you can use them as you like.
In fact it is in the contrary wherein the woman is elevated to possess her due respect and men are required to give that due respect. Man must remember that he was born of a woman (Tilth), and that every human is born of a woman and your children will be born of a woman. Thus, give due respect, remember God and you will be answerable to him. In a world where women’s rights are questionable, this verse gives the men a clear warning and an understanding of her status.
Are women naturally defective for salvation?
It is common for some clerics to understand that women are naturally defective in terms of Salvation. This is directly derived from a famous hadith. The Quran always addresses us by the words “Men and Women” over and over again to show that men and women are equal in Gods eyes, but we do not follow the Quran. The following hadith (Extra Quranic books attributed to prophets) is portraying women to be naturally defective in attaining salvation. But logically it is absurd to think the same prophet who brought the Quran that says men and women are equal in salvation will utter these words. Of course, what story stays uncorrupted through so many generations after the death of prophet Muhammed?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al- Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful
to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." - Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301
Bottom-line is the above hadith “Attributed” to the prophet Muhammed says that women are naturally defective in achieving salvation and lower in intelligence in comparison to a man. Take a look at the next hadith.
Vol 4, Book 55. Prophets. Hadith 548. (Shahi Bukhari)
Narrated By Abu Huraira: Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely."
Accordingly, we are required to treat women with kindness because they are naturally defective and we cannot expect them to be any better. It is as a father or mother required to treat an autistic child with patience because he is not normal and you cannot expect them to behave like normal children.
These words cannot come from the prophet’s mouth because he has originally, in his life time taught otherwise. The above derogative hadith are investigated two and a half centuries after the prophet dies and they are elevated above the Quran which was written during his life time. How many generations would you believe would take a mentally memorized story to get so corrupt. Most nations have generations reaching a maximum of 30 years and according to that equation 250 years is over eight generations. Thus, an intelligent human being would understand the absurdity of this practice.
The above belief that women are naturally defective is completely and utterly contradicting the Quranic teachings which were uttered during the prophet’s lifetime. What should you follow?
· And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with. For the men is a portion of what they earned, and for the women is a portion of what they earned. And ask God from His grace; God is knowledgeable in all things. – Quran 4:32
firedragon
Veteran Member
Wrong and absurd analysis.
But that is entirely a non-issue. No one ever proposes that Ahadith are as authoritative as the Qur'an.
As for the videos, they remind me of an often overlooked yet very significant consideration: a reformed Islaam would hopefully develop some measure of efficiency of communication and learn to state things clearly and in a reasonable amount of time or text.
They don't claim it, but they often act like it.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Think of it. Tell me one practice stemming from the Quran currently adhered to by Muslims.
I have read similar claims before, and they do not seem to make much sense to me, even at face value.
If there are any things that all Muslims will agree on, one of those will definitely be that the Qur'an is more authoritative than the Ahadith no matter what.
Even by the notoriously creative parameters of Islaamic theology, it is probably an all-out impossibility to believe in the opposite, let alone seriously propose it.
It feels all the world like a convenient paper tiger, a fantasy claim designed to brand the accuser as a fighter for truth and the accused as an objectively misguided yet well-meaning and potentially recoverable bother in faith.
And that is one part of it. The Ahadith are not used because people believe then to trump (forgive me the word) the Qur'an. They are used mainly because there is a cultural tradition of seeking refuge in scripture, and the Qur'an does not offer the detail craved for.
Dude, it's still a massive phenomenon in the Muslim world, groups like Hizbut Tahrir massively promote such ideas. This is something that exists in the world. The Quraniyoon exist in opposition to something. Lots of people accept ahadith testimony to a very high level, in practice putting them on a status scarcely below that of the Qur'an. This has a big effect on which doctrines they follow.
That the Qur'an is not as authoritative as some set of Ahadith? Are you sure?
I have a hard time even imagining people accepting it.
Sure.
It does not follow that they are correctly identifying that something, nor that they apply adequate emphasis on their analysis.
For that matter, it does not follow that the Qur'an is any better than the Ahadith, either.
Then it would seem to me that the real issue is not whether the Qur'an is more or less authoritative than any given set of Ahadith, but rather how willing people are to rely on the crutch that is scripture.
No, that Muslims are ahadith as authoritative scripture, not that they're taking it over the Qur'an. But in practice in some communities it's the ahadith that are gone to rather than the Qur'an for resolving some issue, although of course all will, when questioned, say the Qur'an is the real deal.
We can see there are substantial improvements in the behaviour of Quraniyoon vs other more orthodox Muslim groups regarding stances on the treatment of apostates, women etc.
In my view liberal Muslims are the ones with a viable theology though.
Reliance on scripture is a sure-fire recipe for disaster. Be it Qur'an, Ahadith or Bible.
This is a new and surprising view from you Luis! You're like a whole new man.
Ahah... I suppose I HAVe said that before...
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Happy birth day to you.
Regards