What would happen if all religions were right?

[AxisMundi]

The area surrounding the black sea is mountainous, but the sea area itself isn't. It's very possible that torrential rains weakened the land mass that collapsed, allowing the flood. It's been reported that the sea would have risen at a rate of 6 inches per day, so it wouldn't have been beyond the residence to believe that it was caused by the rains. As for the animals, it was supposed to be a pair of all the animals in their world. It wouldn't have had to hold millions. The Noah legend probably developed from a much earlier event, but with a basis in fact. Here's a link to what Bob Ballard found on his national geographic expedition of that area.

National Geographic: Noah’s Flood/Black Sea Expedition--Flash

:giraffe::giraffe:: hamster :: hamster :

1. There is no geological proof supporting the "subsiding theory", which has been used often before by apologists and debunked every time.

2. There is also no indication that it rained for the entire length of the rise in sea levels, which took quite a few years. People would've also been able to observe the waterfall resulting from the Mediterranean breaking through the Bosporus.

3. Firstly, that's seven of each kosher animal, and two of the "unclean". Secondly, there are still hundreds of domesticated and wild species in the Middle East. The math just doesn't add up, even if you eliminate the biblical account of the myth. That is still thousands of animals on board a single craft for the 370 days the account claims they were on board. When one factors in things like feed for over a year, including raw meat, as well as the large amount of ballast that would've been required to keep a ship of those proportions from rolling over.

 

[AxisMundi]

Name is not the only difference; form is, as well.

The point is, people saw the same thing, and created two different gods out of that. The core "essence" of Zeus and Indra is that they are the greatest of gods, and both of lighting and thunder.

As I said, I agree that they might hold the same title.

But they are two distinct and seperate Deities.

The attempt has been made to claim that all gods are in fact Jehovah. This is what I was trying to address, and correct.

 

[AxisMundi]

But was the myth meant to be historical, or was it meant as a story that was based on a barely remembered tragedy?

Have you ever read Joseph Campbell?

No I'm not familiar with Campbell's work.

And the story is quite obviously meant to instill an absolute authority in Jehovah, along with the rest of Genesis.

 

[Riverwolf]

As I said, I agree that they might hold the same title.

But they are two distinct and seperate Deities.

The attempt has been made to claim that all gods are in fact Jehovah. This is what I was trying to address, and correct.

Ah, I see. I wasn't trying to support that argument, as YHWH is also another man-made deity in my opinion.

I, personally, don't think the Absolute Reality can really be defined adequately. "The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao." ^_^

 

[Riverwolf]

No I'm not familiar with Campbell's work.

And the story is quite obviously meant to instill an absolute authority in Jehovah, along with the rest of Genesis.

I'd agree with that statement, if it weren't for the fact that the story (and the other myths of Parashat Bere****) is pretty much mirrored almost verbatim in other mythologies.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Truth is not relative. That completely contradicts the very definition of the word.

You are most welcome to your opinion.

Our scriptures state otherwise, as I've already quoted!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

If you intend on holding your scriptures up as "evidence", then you must first prove that they are infallible and are indeed self-supporting evidence in the first place.

On the contrary, it is the duty and responsibility of every individual to investigate for him- or herself, determine where the truth lies, and then follow that! (Indeed, that's why we call one of our central teachings Individual Investigation of Truth.)

It is not my role to make this determination for you or anyone else--nor is it anyone else's except you yourself.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[AxisMundi]

I'd agree with that statement, if it weren't for the fact that the story (and the other myths of Parashat Bere****) is pretty much mirrored almost verbatim in other mythologies.

No surprise there. It is quite reasonable to assume myths were "borrowed" from older cultures, from the Flood of Gilgamesh to several resurrected sons and sun gods.

This use of older myths doesn't lend them some inherent credibility, however, it merely indicates old thread woven into a new tapestry.

 

[AxisMundi]

Greetings!



On the contrary, it is the duty and responsibility of every individual to investigate for him- or herself, determine where the truth lies, and then follow that! (Indeed, that's why we call one of our central teachings Individual Investigation of Truth.)

It is not my role to make this determination for you or anyone else--nor is it anyone else's except you yourself.

Peace,

Bruce

Then don't expect to be taken seriously, or build any credibility.

Part of the debate process is to substantiate your sources of information and prove your evidence.

While your scriptures might work for you, they hold little credibility for the rest of the world.

 

[Riverwolf]

No surprise there. It is quite reasonable to assume myths were "borrowed" from older cultures, from the Flood of Gilgamesh to several resurrected sons and sun gods.

This use of older myths doesn't lend them some inherent credibility, however, it merely indicates old thread woven into a new tapestry.

I say it is evidence for what Jung called "collective unconscious."

In fact, there's a story in Vedic mythology that almost directly parallels the Noah story: Vishnu (as a fish) comes down to Manu, tells him there's going to be a world-destroying flood, and tells him to construct a boat to save himself and his family. (Though I don't remember if the 2 of every animal was in there.)

 

[AxisMundi]

I say it is evidence for what Jung called "collective unconscious."

In fact, there's a story in Vedic mythology that almost directly parallels the Noah story: Vishnu (as a fish) comes down to Manu, tells him there's going to be a world-destroying flood, and tells him to construct a boat to save himself and his family. (Though I don't remember if the 2 of every animal was in there.)

I think Jung forgot a few important factors.

Mankind developed in basically the same area and then spread out wards. Much of today's religions, for example, can trace their roots to the Indo-europeans.

And that mankind wasn't the isolated pockets of humanity some believe. There was active trade occurring between such far flung places as Europe and Asia through the Middle East.

It is quite reasonable, and even more logical, to assume that the commonality of ancient stories and myths occurred through trade than some common physical "fact". Especially considering there is no evidence to support these myths, particularly the world inundation variety.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think Jung forgot a few important factors.

Mankind developed in basically the same area and then spread out wards. Much of today's religions, for example, can trace their roots to the Indo-europeans.

And that mankind wasn't the isolated pockets of humanity some believe. There was active trade occurring between such far flung places as Europe and Asia through the Middle East.

It is quite reasonable, and even more logical, to assume that the commonality of ancient stories and myths occurred through trade than some common physical "fact". Especially considering there is no evidence to support these myths, particularly the world inundation variety.

I take it you don't really agree with the theory of collective unconscious? ^_^ (BTW, from what I understand, when Jung talked about collective unconscious, he referred to common archetypes, not specifics to stories. I was making a reference to how CU could play into the similarities to these stories.)

There's nothing to indicate that the myths, as they are told, actually happened. However, stories in general are usually based, however loosely, on something that actually happened.

I'm sure trade played a factor into it. Someone heard a story, and made their own version. However, I don't think they would have fashioned their own version, nor do I think such a story would have really caught on, unless it somehow resonated with the people.

Now, mass-floods happen all the time; especially at the end of the last ice age, they would have been very numerous, I'd wager. Now, the Manu flood story and the Noah flood story are very alike; while there may have been a flood in that area to influence such a resonance, it is certainly likely that one of the stories borrowed at least some elements from the other (such as the boat; I don't think that kind of thing would have been part of a collective unconscious.) On the other hand, you have stories such as the sinking of Atlantis that, as far as I know, has little in common with the Biblical flood story, and thus would have likely been inspired by a different event. (Such as the fall of the Minoan civilization; that's one of the theories I've heard.)

 

[AxisMundi]

I take it you don't really agree with the theory of collective unconscious? ^_^ (BTW, from what I understand, when Jung talked about collective unconscious, he referred to common archetypes, not specifics to stories. I was making a reference to how CU could play into the similarities to these stories.)

There's nothing to indicate that the myths, as they are told, actually happened. However, stories in general are usually based, however loosely, on something that actually happened.

I'm sure trade played a factor into it. Someone heard a story, and made their own version. However, I don't think they would have fashioned their own version, nor do I think such a story would have really caught on, unless it somehow resonated with the people.

Now, mass-floods happen all the time; especially at the end of the last ice age, they would have been very numerous, I'd wager. Now, the Manu flood story and the Noah flood story are very alike; while there may have been a flood in that area to influence such a resonance, it is certainly likely that one of the stories borrowed at least some elements from the other (such as the boat; I don't think that kind of thing would have been part of a collective unconscious.) On the other hand, you have stories such as the sinking of Atlantis that, as far as I know, has little in common with the Biblical flood story, and thus would have likely been inspired by a different event. (Such as the fall of the Minoan civilization; that's one of the theories I've heard.)

You make good points, however...

A boat would naturally fit into the scenario, considering that there is water involved.

And considering that the human condition, not matter where a person lives, is pretty much the same, it merely stand to reason that the same things are going to resonate across cultures.

 

[Circle_One]

Just for fun...


I think the universe would implode.

I don't understand the question.

All religions are right.

As long as there are believers, whatever religion is practiced by said believers, is the right religion for them. And to/for them, it is right.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I think Jung forgot a few important factors.


And that mankind wasn't the isolated pockets of humanity some believe. There was active trade occurring between such far flung places as Europe and Asia through the Middle East.

What about the native American storys of the flood.

Native American Legends
The Great Flood
A Salish Legend

Long before missionaries ever arrived in the New World, the Indians had ancient legends of a great flood, similar to that of Noah. This is the one the Cowichan tell.

In ancient times, there were so many people in the land that they lived everywhere. Soon hunting became bad and food scarce, so that the people quarreled over hunting territories.

Even in those days, the people were skilled in making fine canoes and paddles from cedars, and clothing and baskets from their bark. In dreams their wise old men could see the future, and there came a time when they all had similar bad dreams that kept coming to them over and over again. The dreams warned of a great flood. This troubled the wise men who told each other about their dreams. They found that they all had dreamed that rain fell for such a long time, or that the river rose, causing a great flood so that all of the people were drowned. They were much afraid and called a council to hear their dreams and decide what should be done. One said that they should build a great raft by tying many canoes together. Some of the people agreed, but others laughed at the old men and their dreams.

The people who believed in the dreams worked hard building the raft. It took many moons of hard work, lashing huge cedar log canoes together with strong ropes of cedar bark. When it was completed, they tied the raft with a great rope of cedar bark to the top of Mount Cowichan by passing one end of the rope through the center of a huge stone which can still be seen there.

During the time the people were working on the raft, those who did not believe in the dreams were idle and still laughed, but they did admire the fine, solid raft when it was at last finished and floated in Cowichan Bay.

Soon after the raft was ready, huge raindrops started falling, rivers overflowed, and the valleys were flooded. Although people climbed Mount Cowichan to avoid the great flood, it too was soon under water. But those who had believed the dreams took food to the raft and they and their families climbed into it as the waters rose. They lived on the raft many days and could see nothing but water. Even the mountain tops had disappeared beneath the flood. The people became much afraid when their canoes began to flood and they prayed for help. Nothing happened for a long time; then the rain stopped.

The waters began to go down after a time, and finally the raft was grounded on top of Mount Cowichan. The huge stone anchor and heavy rope had held it safe. As the water gradually sank lower and lower, the people could see their lands, but their homes had all been swept away. The valleys and forests had been destroyed. The people went back to their old land and started to rebuild their homes.

After a long time the number of people increased, until once again the land was filled and the people started to quarrel again. This time they separated into tribes and clans, all going to different places. The storytellers say this is how people spread all over the Earth

Native American Indian Legends - The Great Flood - Salish

There is no proof of trade between the native Americans and the folks in the middle east. These storys are all over the world.

Humans did all come from the same place, And all of us is wired in the same way. We dream about the same things due to our commen history. Our unconscious minds uses the same imagery all over the world. That is why Jung called it the collective unconscious, we all are human. Modern Humans have forgoten what mythology is they tend to inturpet as literal.

 

[AxisMundi]

What about the native American storys of the flood.

Native American Legends
The Great Flood
A Salish Legend

Long before missionaries ever arrived in the New World, the Indians had ancient legends of a great flood, similar to that of Noah. This is the one the Cowichan tell.

In ancient times, there were so many people in the land that they lived everywhere. Soon hunting became bad and food scarce, so that the people quarreled over hunting territories.

Even in those days, the people were skilled in making fine canoes and paddles from cedars, and clothing and baskets from their bark. In dreams their wise old men could see the future, and there came a time when they all had similar bad dreams that kept coming to them over and over again. The dreams warned of a great flood. This troubled the wise men who told each other about their dreams. They found that they all had dreamed that rain fell for such a long time, or that the river rose, causing a great flood so that all of the people were drowned. They were much afraid and called a council to hear their dreams and decide what should be done. One said that they should build a great raft by tying many canoes together. Some of the people agreed, but others laughed at the old men and their dreams.

The people who believed in the dreams worked hard building the raft. It took many moons of hard work, lashing huge cedar log canoes together with strong ropes of cedar bark. When it was completed, they tied the raft with a great rope of cedar bark to the top of Mount Cowichan by passing one end of the rope through the center of a huge stone which can still be seen there.

During the time the people were working on the raft, those who did not believe in the dreams were idle and still laughed, but they did admire the fine, solid raft when it was at last finished and floated in Cowichan Bay.

Soon after the raft was ready, huge raindrops started falling, rivers overflowed, and the valleys were flooded. Although people climbed Mount Cowichan to avoid the great flood, it too was soon under water. But those who had believed the dreams took food to the raft and they and their families climbed into it as the waters rose. They lived on the raft many days and could see nothing but water. Even the mountain tops had disappeared beneath the flood. The people became much afraid when their canoes began to flood and they prayed for help. Nothing happened for a long time; then the rain stopped.

The waters began to go down after a time, and finally the raft was grounded on top of Mount Cowichan. The huge stone anchor and heavy rope had held it safe. As the water gradually sank lower and lower, the people could see their lands, but their homes had all been swept away. The valleys and forests had been destroyed. The people went back to their old land and started to rebuild their homes.

After a long time the number of people increased, until once again the land was filled and the people started to quarrel again. This time they separated into tribes and clans, all going to different places. The storytellers say this is how people spread all over the Earth

Native American Indian Legends - The Great Flood - Salish

There is no proof of trade between the native Americans and the folks in the middle east. These storys are all over the world.

Humans did all come from the same place, And all of us is wired in the same way. We dream about the same things due to our commen history. Our unconscious minds uses the same imagery all over the world. That is why Jung called it the collective unconscious, we all are human. Modern Humans have forgoten what mythology is they tend to inturpet as literal.

Again, floods occur all over the world.

Just becasue disparate cultures for different parts of the world might ahve the same myth, about the same thing, doesn't mean they occured.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't understand the question.

All religions are right.

As long as there are believers, whatever religion is practiced by said believers, is the right religion for them. And to/for them, it is right.

If what you say is correct, then the theology of many religions is incorrect; how could they then be said to be "right", even for the religion's own believers?

 

[BruceDLimber]

While your scriptures might work for you, they hold little credibility for the rest of the world.

Seven million people (and counting, with more every day) disagree with you!


Peace,

Bruce

 

[Walkntune]

Religions tend to run counter to each other in dogma and doctrines.

How could they "all be right", keeping in context with your hypothetical?

And science is all in agreement?

 

[tumbleweed41]

And science is all in agreement?

• There is consensus.
• Science deals with the natural world, religion the supernatural.