What would the world be like without religion?

[David1967]

I understand.
Personal spirituality is not the same as 'religion,'

I do agree with you there.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm sure to a primitive person it would seem that way. Wasn't too far back in our history that we thought the earth was the center of the universe.

Yup, and it was the church who acted out against those who discovered the truth and spoke it (as they did when it was dared suggested the universe is vast and infinite).

 

[David1967]

Yup, and it was the church who acted out against those who discovered the truth and spoke it (as they did when it was dared suggested the universe is vast and infinite).

Yup.It was a dangerous time to be a scientist.

 

[Augustus]

If there had never been any religions I'd guess that the world would be far more primitive than it is today. They were pretty much essential in creating common bonds of non-genetic kinship and holding these together long term. This allowed humans to live together in larger groups which was essential for technological and intellectual progress.

If we ignore this issue and assume that societies did develop, modern intellectual traditions have a history that is intertwined with that of major religions to such an extent that they can't really be unpacked anyway.

With no religion, these could have branched off in wildly different directions over the course of our history. It's highly unlikely they would resemble something like modern Secular Humanism though (which many people seem to assume would be the result).

 

[Mister Silver]

If there had never been any religions I'd guess that the world would be far more primitive than it is today. They were pretty much essential in creating common bonds of non-genetic kinship and holding these together long term. This allowed humans to live together in larger groups which was essential for technological and intellectual progress.

If we ignore this issue and assume that societies did develop, modern intellectual traditions have a history that is intertwined with that of major religions to such an extent that they can't really be unpacked anyway.

With no religion, these could have branched off in wildly different directions over the course of our history. It's highly unlikely they would resemble something like modern Secular Humanism though (which many people seem to assume would be the result).

To be honest, though, religion was never a problem until monotheism decided to infringe upon society. And then religion became the problem .

 

[Augustus]

Yup.It was a dangerous time to be a scientist.

Not really. We shouldn't mistake the sensational for the average.

The Church was the biggest funder and promoter of science for many centuries, integrated maths and natural science into their curricula, translated key Greek and Arabic texts, developed the university system, etc.

Aside from a few high profile 'anti-science' incidents, the Church did more than any other organisation to foster the growth of the sciences.

 

[Mister Silver]

Not really. We shouldn't mistake the sensational for the average.

The Church was the biggest funder and promoter of science for many centuries, integrated maths and natural science into their curricula, translated key Greek and Arabic texts, developed the university system, etc.

Aside from a few high profile 'anti-science' incidents, the Church did more than any other organisation to foster the growth of the sciences.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, apologist arguments at work. Nice.

Tip: I wouldn't attempt to undercurrent any bad the church did, considering it still does bad things.

 

[Augustus]

To be honest, though, religion was never a problem until monotheism decided to infringe upon society. And then religion became the problem .

Montheisms were problematic in the sense of being intrinsically less able to integrate diverse perspectives.

They are also the philosophical foundation for many of the modern universalist ideas we have such as Humanity and the rights that go along with this.

A mixed bag to be true. But one that can't be unpicked neatly.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, apologist arguments at work. Nice.

Actually, it's called history. Amazingly enough, the history of religion in human history is somewhat nuanced and not just 'bad, bad super evil nasty mean religion'.

Which points do you consider to lack factual basis?

 

[Mister Silver]

Which points do you consider to lack factual basis?

I'm well aware of the history of religion. I have spent more than half of my life studying it. It is why I am an atheist. When one truly studies the history of religion, there is no way one could be a theist.

I'm confused on your question I kept in the quotes. Please elaborate.

 

[Augustus]

I'm well aware of the history of religion. I have spent more than half of my life studying it. It is why I am an atheist. When one truly studies the history of religion, there is no way one could be a theist.

I'm not religious and never have been. For me, looking at the history of religion actually made me view it in a more positive light though (from being very anti to somewhat neutral).

I'm confused on your question I kept in the quotes. Please elaborate.

You claimed this constituted apologetics (which I assume means you don't see it as an accurate statement regarding history):

Not really. We shouldn't mistake the sensational for the average.

The Church was the biggest funder and promoter of science for many centuries, integrated maths and natural science into their curricula, translated key Greek and Arabic texts, developed the university system, etc.

Aside from a few high profile 'anti-science' incidents, the Church did more than any other organisation to foster the growth of the sciences.

 

[Mister Silver]

I'm not religious and never have been. For me, looking at the history of religion actually made me view it in a more positive light though (from being very anti to somewhat neutral).



You claimed this constituted apologetics (which I assume means you don't see it as an accurate statement regarding history):

Not really. We shouldn't mistake the sensational for the average.

The Church was the biggest funder and promoter of science for many centuries, integrated maths and natural science into their curricula, translated key Greek and Arabic texts, developed the university system, etc.

Aside from a few high profile 'anti-science' incidents, the Church did more than any other organisation to foster the growth of the sciences.

That, yes, sorry. And thank you for taking the time to remind me of what it was to which I was making that comment. These trolls today, they leave their one liners, and it is infuriating.

What I meant by my comment in relation to the apologist argument is that in light of what little good the church has done, it still remains the biggest contender for harm toward society.

 

[Notanumber]

If all religions allowed people to join or leave at will and accepted criticism without issuing threats and in some cases carrying out those threats the world would be a better place.

 

[oldbadger]

What do you think the world would be like without religion? Please explain.

A World without religion would be empty of humans, and so, building upon that a World without religion would be a balanced, clean, ecologically ideal environs for all other life.

I would suggest that all humans follow some kind of 'Small-R' religion.

 

[Augustus]

What I meant by my comment in relation to the apologist argument is that in light of what little good the church has done, it still remains the biggest contender for harm toward society.

While it goes against 'Atheist Received Wisdom' (and thus usually gets me branded as a 'theist' or 'apologist'), personally, I think the Church and Christianity played a fundamental role in the development of the modern West, and the development of modern science (both directly and indirectly).

In a counterfactual history, it is possible that 'something else' could have fulfilled this role, but it is far from a certainty. For example, in China, long a far more advanced society, there wasn't even an industrial revolution, never mind a scientific one.

If Christianity was this great anchor preventing progress, it seems a little strange to me that the Enlightenment happened precisely where it did. Also the places that modern Secular Humanism rose to be among the most popular ideologies closely mirror those which were part of a particular religious heritage. It could be a coincidence, but would be a pretty neat one, especially if you believe that ideas and philosophies don't magically appear out of a vacuum but from adapting and combining existing ideas and philosophies.

It is impossible to guess as to what the modern West would look look had there been no Christianity, but I seriously doubt it would be anything like it is at the moment. Maybe we'd have flying cars and a cure for cancer, maybe we'd still live in a tribal and slave based society.

You can't weed out the 'good' and 'bad' as the entire intellectual and political tradition would have been completely different.

As for being the biggest cause of harm, I'm also very sceptical. We are a relatively intelligent but unusually violent species. It's comforting to believe that harms are caused by 'errors' such as religions, much less so to believe that these 'errors' are in fact fundamental aspects of out nature.

It requires human exceptionalism to believe we, alone among animals, can transcend our very nature, but human exceptionalism is a very religious belief.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

If there had never been any religions I'd guess that the world would be far more primitive than it is today. They were pretty much essential in creating common bonds of non-genetic kinship and holding these together long term. This allowed humans to live together in larger groups which was essential for technological and intellectual progress.

If we ignore this issue and assume that societies did develop, modern intellectual traditions have a history that is intertwined with that of major religions to such an extent that they can't really be unpacked anyway.

With no religion, these could have branched off in wildly different directions over the course of our history. It's highly unlikely they would resemble something like modern Secular Humanism though (which many people seem to assume would be the result).

Ya, I don't buy that at all. Humans are naturally social animals, so it is in their nature to form social bonds and communities; if not via religion then something else.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

religion isn't the cause of evil, it's just a vehicle for it as it is currently practiced.

Let me see if I can change your mind about that. This is a bit lengthy, but I think you'll find it substantive.

Religion as I am familiar with it in the West is a facilitator of malevolence. Sure, it probably wasn't the cause of David Koresh's messianic complex and his apocalyptic vision, but it certainly fed into them, and worse, caused several weak but probably otherwise decent dozen people to follow him to their deaths and bring their children along. That was typical faith based thought in an atypical setting. Those people either trusted that Koresh could protect them either with the help of God or because he was a god, and/or that God in heaven was testing their their faithfulness and trust in Him, and that therefore, they should not leave the compound, a fatal choice.

Sure, that's an outlier. Most people involved in religion aren't going to end up barricaded from law enforcement in a tinder box full of weapons, but religion encourages faith based thought that has other damaging effects on a smaller scale.

How about all of the children that are being denied proper educations because their parents are putting them into schools that teach them creationism or else home schooling them, both of which promote the idea that scientists can't be trusted and that secular universities are dangerous places that transform their Christian adolescent children into atheists. Many of these children will forever be noncompetitive when it comes to a variety of professional opportunities, and ignorant of scientific matters.

This ignorance of science and distrust of scientists feed right into global climate change denial, another bit of damage done by religion.

Religion gives the imprimatur of sanctity and God's blessing to racist groups like the Klan and the neo-nazis that allows them to disregard the condemnation of those filthy liberal atheists and feel upright in their efforts. Religion emboldens them, as do concepts like the chosen people and separating the sheep from the goats.

In Nigeria, Christianity has led to witch burnings. Sure, there are people that would like to do that without religion.But would the whole village consent to the act without faith that witches are not to be suffered, and that burning them is the will of God

In Uganda, Christianity's institutional homophobia led to a law that all homosexuals were to be executed, which has been modified to life imprisonment. From Wiki: "The Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Act, 2014 (previously called the "Kill the Gays bill" in the western mainstream media due to death penalty clauses proposed in the original version) was passed by the Parliament of Uganda on 20 December 2013 with life in prison substituted for the death penalty."

In Malaysia right now, somebody is being held and tried for blasphemy.

The Catholic church has facilitated the spread of AIDS throughout Africa with its faith based admonition that the use of condoms is immoral. Who would believe that without religion?

In America, it is why many young people are denied sex education and access to contraception, instead being advised to be abstinent, a strategy well-known to fail. Ask the Palin girl, the person with more to lose by becoming pregnant out of wedlock than most Americans by virtue of her mother being a public figure publicly advocating abstinence only. As soon as this girl hit puberty and her hormones began flowing, nature took over.

What would bring Islamic terrorists together to commit acts of terrorism without their religious belief that it is Allah's will, and therefore holy? Once again, sure, there would be people that would want to engage in these types of activities without religion, but far fewer of them, and they wouldn't have the support of so much of the community around them, people easily mobilized to join in.

Would we have had the Planned Parenthood shootings without religion? Sure, Robert Lewis Dear was probably a weak and unstable man, but once again, the imprimatur of holiness gave this man permission to go on what he felt was a highly moral shooting spree and feel good about it. From Planned Parenthood shooter ‘happy’ with his attack, "The man who admits to killing three people at a Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic last fall told police he dreamed he’ll be met in Heaven by aborted fetuses wanting to thank him for saving unborn babies, according to newly released court documents." This man doesn't feel like a criminal. He feels heroic because of ideas put into his head by other faith based thinkers also on a crusade to enforce what they think are Jesus' values. Religion made them all that way.

How about the worldwide cover-up of what is a de facto pedophile sex ring operating within the Catholic church? Would that have happened without religion? I don't see why it would or how it could. I'm told that there is a problem with pedophilia in the schools as well. The difference is that the school administration has no organized cover-up. There is no culture of remaining silent when a teacher becomes aware of another teacher's crimes, and no desire or mechanism to spirit teachers off to other school districts where they are not known as pedophiles and are free to start again there.

So yes, there would still be hatred and violence in the world without religion, but not as much. Organized religion is an institution that amplifies those proclivities in the sociopaths and psychopaths by giving it an air of righteousness in the eyes of those that it recruits to assist the pedophiles, bombers, abortion clinic shooters, and cross burners, all of which is facilitated by the faith based belief in a good God with various messages and commandments for us that malevolent people can easily tap into to manufacture support for their grossly immoral agendas. All of that except the sociopaths and psychopaths goes away when religion does. They have to find other malevolent people to assist them, not otherwise good people, and that shrinks their numbers and influence by orders of magnitude..

• "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg

To those of the Dharmic faiths: I realize that there are other incarnations of religion that I know little or nothing about to which it is possible that none of this argument applies. I don't know whether the world would be better off without those religions.

 

[sayak83]

What do you think the world would be like without religion? Please explain.

This will depend on what replaces it.

 

[Ponder This]

What do you think the world would be like without religion? Please explain.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

For me, looking at the history of religion actually made me view it in a more positive light though (from being very anti to somewhat neutral).

I went the other direction. When I left Christianity, I had was fairly neutral about it. Now, I am an anti-theist- somebody that considers organized religion as he knows it to be a net harm on society, and sees that the world would be much better off without it. This came from a study of modern history: Current events since the nineties.

Sure, there are probably beneficial effects of organized religion - I like the cathedrals - but nothing that couldn't have been accomplished without religion as well or better.

• "The fact that [the Catholic church] can do good is a testament to the fact that there are good people who will do good, but the organization is corrupt. It is poisoned to its core and it serves no essential good purpose, no true purpose, it is lie after lie, promoting harm to real people....the Catholic Church is not a force for good."- Matt Dillahunty,

 

[ChristineM]

What do you think the world would be like without religion? Please explain.

Probably even more overcrowd than it is. Throughout recorded history over 800 million people have been killed in the name of religion. Just imagine had they not been killed, and some at least had reproduced, the additional population that would have built up over thousands of years.