What would you expect people to do if a real God sent a real Messenger to earth?

[Trailblazer]

God does interfere with free will because God creates the possible choices we can make. Do you really believe God did not know exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about? Of course He knew.

God knows what is going to happen because God is omniscient. But that does not mean God intervenes in human free will choices. He certainly did not do that in the garden.

What is God's message and what is not is for each of us to decide. I can't prove to you my words are God's words. But sometimes the words just feel "right" in a divine way. It's purely subjective. If it were objective, there would be no need to have faith in a particular type of God.

I believe you are made in the image and likeness of God so in that sense you can speak in a divine way, but I do not believe anyone except the messengers of God can speak for God.

Yes, beliefs are subjective although they sometimes have objective evidence to support them.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, life and respect for other human beings are what define your responsibility, if you refuse to abide by civilised mores then we are done here

Are you saying that I am not respecting life and other human beings because I will not present all the evidence for Baha’u’llah on a public forum?

Are you saying that I am not abiding by civilized mores because I will not present all the evidence for Baha’u’llah on a public forum?

Please answer yes or no.

 

[Trailblazer]

So he knew childhood leukemia would kill innocent children before he created leukemia?

God knew what would happen to children but God did not create leukemia.

He knew religion's would be responsible for more wars and violent death than any other cause before religion?

God knew but God did not create wars and violent death. Humans did that.

He knew the lowly mosquito (not all, just a small subset of mosquitoes, anophele mosquito's, and only the female ones) would kill more people than religion has killed before he created the mosquito.

He knew that yesterday my friend who rushed to help out at a car accident would be critically injured by another passing car and have to be airlifted to a hospital 150 miles away to get the required treatment to (hopefully) save her life so she can continue going to church to thank god.

I am sorry to hear about your friend. She sounds like a really good person. Sadly, it is often the good people who get hurt by the bad ones.
Yes, God knew those things, but that does not make them God’s fault. They are just part and parcel of living in a material world that is a storehouse of suffering.

 

[Trailblazer]

You don’t think that God does what he sets out to do?

God does not set out to do anything. All God does is send messengers. God allows humans to do what they are supposed to do with their message.

I rejected those reasons.

Fine, you can reject whatever you want to.

The same is true of any religious conversion, but conversions still happen all the time.
The LDS Church was founded around the same time as the Baha’i faith, but the Mormons have been more than twice as successful in getting people to accept their message than your religion has been.

The Pentecostal movement is even newer - it’s only about a century old - but it has been more than 40 times more successful than the Baha’i faith at getting people to accept its message.

The REASONS for that are drop dead obvious. Those are movements, offshoots from Christianity; they are not entirely new religions. The people who converted to those already believed in Jesus Christ, so it was no big deal to convert to a different sect of Christianity. The Baha’i Faith is completely new and different so it is a lot more difficult for people to accept the message.

But the biggest reason religious people do not accept the Baha’i Faith is because it is a completely new religion and has a new messenger. Religious people do not want a new religion or a new messenger because they are attached to their older religions and older messengers. I am not making this up. I know it is true because I have been posting to Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists for four years.

Do you think that Mormon missionaries or Pentecostal preachers violate people’s free will?

No, but they do not have to do much to convince people who already believe in Jesus Christ to switch their church affiliation. By contrast, the Baha’i Faith is completely new and different. Moreover, we believe that Baha’u’llah was the return of Jesus Christ, so that is a deal breaker for Christians, since most Christians (including Mormons) are waiting for the same man Jesus to return.

He’d like it, but apparently not that much, right?

Not enough to override human free will.

Since we are talking about smallness of the religion and time, I will post what I just wrote to that atheist I told you about, the one for which I had posted this thread.

Only a few people recognize God’s *new religion* in the beginning, and that is why the Baha’i Faith is still relatively small.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

As this relates to religion, the religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the *new religion* and the *new messenger.* If they are atheists they do not like the *idea* of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and He said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel. That is human nature.

Most people enter through the wide gate and follow the road that leads to destruction... It is easier to walk through the wide gate and walk the easy road that is behind it because people do not have to think for themselves, they just follow the crowd. It is also easier for people to have many others who agree with them rather than just a few. Baha’is do not care how many people agree with them because they know they have the *current* Truth from God.

Eventually it won’t matter how small the Baha’i Faith was in the beginning because in the distant future everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah and enter through the same gate, the gate that leads to life. Of course, that is just my belief. We won't see that in our lifetimes so there is no way to demonstrate that it is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

The atheist assumes that all recipients are listening and paying attention. The atheist further assumes that there can be only one “correct” message. The atheist assumes, moreover, that God must give clear directives, instead of teaching in a way that allows us to discover for ourselves through reflection and self-examination.

Yes, I fully agree. That is what I have learned through my experience.

Thanks for putting that so succinctly.

 

[Trailblazer]

Declare this God to be a false God.

Since we know nothing about God except some random concept of God conjured by people's subconscious minds, I wouldn't expect a real God to have much in common with people's personal image of God. So it's doubtful that this real God would match up with anyone's expectations.

I'd expect atheists to be more open to examining this God's credentials since they have no expectation of a God.

Anyone who has a personal image of God is wrong off the bat because the Essence of God is beyond everything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

Atheists know less about God than believers who have a religion because at least those believers have some conception of God as far as the basic attributes are concerned. By contrast, atheists are flying blind.

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe in a god who is absolutely irresponsible. Darn good thing this god doesn't exist.

Darn good thing He does. He is holding down the fort, little do you know it.

 

[stvdv]

Why would God send any Messenger at all. Everything is Perfect just the way it is. Who am I to judge anything about God's creation.

Unless sending Messengers is a part of God's Plan with creation.

 

[stvdv]

This 'prophet' would have to do something far more spectacular that any so called prophet has done to date.

Maybe the world is perfect as it is. So no need to proof Himself. Just Be Himself. The True Seeker will See and Learn.

 

[Stevicus]

God knows what is going to happen because God is omniscient. But that does not mean God intervenes in human free will choices. He certainly did not do that in the garden.

God put the tree in the garden in the first place. According to the Attractive Nuisance principle, God is liable for what happened. I would say that very much is an indication of God intervening/interfering in human free will choices.

Or consider the fate of this poor kid:

What kind of sadistic parents would put a hornets' nest in their kid's bedroom and then claim that it was his fault that he got stung? This is pretty much what God did to Adam and Eve, if that story is anything to go by.

 

[Vinayaka]

Maybe the world is perfect as it is. So no need to proof Himself. Just Be Himself. The True Seeker will See and Learn.

Yes, I believe it is. A perfect state of changing. For health and psychological reasons, this is a far saner belief than any doomsday. We are on our own. But seems that's hard to accept for some.

 

[dfnj]

God knows what is going to happen because God is omniscient. But that does not mean God intervenes in human free will choices. He certainly did not do that in the garden.

The thing about free-will is unless you have total control of the choices you are able to choose from, you really do not have free-will. Free-will is more than just choosing. Its about having control over what choices you can make. So unless a person has omnipotent powers, each of us is a slaved to what is presented to us. It sucks to be a slave to our list of choices.

I believe you are made in the image and likeness of God so in that sense you can speak in a divine way, but I do not believe anyone except the messengers of God can speak for God.

This is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the Internet. But sadly, I can assure you, I in no way shape or form speak for the Almighty. We are apart. Although if He starts up an eye-to-eye conversation with me I will not interrupt Him when He is talking.

Yes, beliefs are subjective although they sometimes have objective evidence to support them.

The problem is determining what is "objective evidence" is done by subjective judgments. Sometimes "junk" science is "good" science and vice versa.

 

[ChristineM]

Are you saying that I am not respecting life and other human beings because I will not present all the evidence for Baha’u’llah on a public forum?

Are you saying that I am not abiding by civilized mores because I will not present all the evidence for Baha’u’llah on a public forum?

Please answer yes or no.

Twist it however makes you feel good.

What i said was " life and respect for other human beings are what define your responsibility, if you refuse to abide by civilised mores then we are done here"

 

[ChristineM]

God knew what would happen to children but God did not create leukemia.

God knew but God did not create wars and violent death. Humans did that.

I am sorry to hear about your friend. She sounds like a really good person. Sadly, it is often the good people who get hurt by the bad ones.
Yes, God knew those things, but that does not make them God’s fault. They are just part and parcel of living in a material world that is a storehouse of suffering.

So god created the universe, how it works and humans and he is omniscient but he did not create the bad stuff, the stuff you dont like, got ya.

It makes your omni everything god a sick individual if he knows the good will be hurt and chooses to let it happen, perhaps he thinks is fun or perhaps he's on the side of the drunk/speeding driver.

 

[Nakosis]

Anyone who has a personal image of God is wrong off the bat because the Essence of God is beyond everything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

Atheists know less about God than believers who have a religion because at least those believers have some conception of God as far as the basic attributes are concerned. By contrast, atheists are flying blind.

Yes but a least an atheist acknowledges they are blind so probably wouldn't be flying in the first place. Whereas you get into a plane with the faithful, you really have no idea whether they know anything about God or not. I think the later is much more dangerous.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God knows what is going to happen because God is omniscient. But that does not mean God intervenes in human free will choices. He certainly did not do that in the garden.

Ummm... your two sentences contradict one another.

If this god already knows? Then? Free Will Is Impossible--- you cannot go against what an all-powerful god already knows. There is no choice. You are merely a robot.

Free Will is an expression of Power (albeit a small one).

If there is an All-Powerful deity in the same Universe? Then Free Will cannot exist.

'Oh!' you argue 'god *grants* us free will'.

Then? The god in question is no longer All-Powerful-- having given some of that away.

And more? It is no longer All Knowing-- because by giving Free Will? It also gives up fore-knowledge!

Free Will absolutely depends on the future NOT already being known!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God knew what would happen to children but God did not create leukemia.

So. Your god is not all-powerful, then?

If it did not create it? It is not the ultimate creator-- having given up some of it's creative prerogative.

But. If your god knew that leukemia was going to happen-- and allowed it to happen?
Then?

It created it by default, for failing to prevent it in the first place.

Your god is guilty no matter how you try to spin it.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Darn good thing He does. He is holding down the fort, little do you know it.

Not, if I go by anything YOU say.... ! Your comments paint a god who is absolutely an immoral, irresponsible monster.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Are you saying that I am not respecting life and other human beings because I will not present all the evidence for Baha’u’llah on a public forum?

Are you saying that I am not abiding by civilized mores because I will not present all the evidence for Baha’u’llah on a public forum?

Please answer yes or no.

You are being as irresponsible as your god--- in that you are deliberately creating Special Categories of People:

## those who are in the "club"
## everyone else

This is patently Unfair. Just like your descriptions of your god, so it's at least consistently immoral.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God does not set out to do anything. All God does is send messengers.

Travel back to 1963, please:

"But, officer! I did not know that cigarettes caused cancer! Arrest that man!"

"But, sir! There was a warning. You were warned."

<looks at the packet of cigarettes-- nothing. Looks at an individual cigarette, still nothing.>
"Where?"

"Oh, the warnings is in the Warning Department, in Atlanta, Georgia, in the basement of Phillip Marlowe building. Under lock and key, in a safe, guarded by a nest of poisonous snakes."

"But I live in Chicago! And I hate snakes!"

"Yes, that is true-- but you were warned!"