What would you expect people to do if a real God sent a real Messenger to earth?

[Ra Daughter]

I expect people to not listen to God's messenger because they are caught up in their beliefs and judgments and blinded by true Light when it comes. When left in the darkness too long, the Light becomes unbearable.

 

[Nakosis]

Ummm... your two sentences contradict one another.

If this god already knows? Then? Free Will Is Impossible--- you cannot go against what an all-powerful god already knows. There is no choice. You are merely a robot.

Free Will is an expression of Power (albeit a small one).

If there is an All-Powerful deity in the same Universe? Then Free Will cannot exist.

'Oh!' you argue 'god *grants* us free will'.

Then? The god in question is no longer All-Powerful-- having given some of that away.

And more? It is no longer All Knowing-- because by giving Free Will? It also gives up fore-knowledge!

Free Will absolutely depends on the future NOT already being known!

I'm just an atheist so I'm not really claiming to know anything about God, but I'm interested in arguments about free will...

So, here's how I would argue it.

God doesn't know the future because the future doesn't exist until God creates it. There is nothing to know. God being all powerful can make the future to be whatever God wants it to be. God could decide to scrap the entire universe and create a completely different universe tomorrow. So all knowing, God knows all that is. What doesn't exist, like the future, there's nothing to know about.

Free will is granted to man, but it is not separate from Gods free will. Obviously man's actions are usually not acts of freewill. We are driven by the environment, emotions to act. However, when we are "in tune" with God's will we share the same ability to create the future as God does.

So free will is God sharing the ability to create the future. SIn is acting from desire/temptation which results in a predetermined future. Hell, basically. Sin leads us, predictability, towards a hellish future. Free will allows us to create a different future in concert really with the all-mighty.

 

[osgart]

I myself can not hold to the mythologies of the past to guide my life. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, are all mythologies meant to be taken literally. If God is real, God would have a universal message apart from human constructs. I must say God would stand apart from human constructs of who God is.

Reading some of the Gleanings, they refer to the days of Moses. It sounds to me like the author is trying to reconcile all religions as true, to unite mankind into one religion.

I have yet to find one religion true.

There are some extraordinarily beautiful sayings in those Gleanings of the Ba'hai faith, yet i dont adhere to its overall conglomeration of all religions.

It espouses some very compelling visions though, particularly about doing away with superiority, arrogancy, and pride. And also the capacity for each individual to learn and understand the Divine nature.

 

[sojourner]

I myself can not hold to the mythologies of the past to guide my life. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, are all mythologies meant to be taken literally. If God is real, God would have a universal message apart from human constructs. I must say God would stand apart from human constructs of who God is.

Reading some of the Gleanings, they refer to the days of Moses. It sounds to me like the author is trying to reconcile all religions as true, to unite mankind into one religion.

I have yet to find one religion true.

There are some extraordinarily beautiful sayings in those Gleanings of the Ba'hai faith, yet i dont adhere to its overall conglomeration of all religions.

It espouses some very compelling visions though, particularly about doing away with superiority, arrogancy, and pride. And also the capacity for each individual to learn and understand the Divine nature.

But, at least for Christianity (and, I suspect, Judaism) God works through human agency. And mythology is not meant to be taken literally. Seems like you’re a little confused as to what it is you’re refuting.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I'm just an atheist so I'm not really claiming to know anything about God, but I'm interested in arguments about free will...

So, here's how I would argue it.

God doesn't know the future because the future doesn't exist until God creates it. There is nothing to know. God being all powerful can make the future to be whatever God wants it to be. God could decide to scrap the entire universe and create a completely different universe tomorrow. So all knowing, God knows all that is. What doesn't exist, like the future, there's nothing to know about.

Free will is granted to man, but it is not separate from Gods free will. Obviously man's actions are usually not acts of freewill. We are driven by the environment, emotions to act. However, when we are "in tune" with God's will we share the same ability to create the future as God does.

So free will is God sharing the ability to create the future. SIn is acting from desire/temptation which results in a predetermined future. Hell, basically. Sin leads us, predictability, towards a hellish future. Free will allows us to create a different future in concert really with the all-mighty.

That model would work, except that means there is information that god does not know: the future.

And that's impossible for both an all-knowing, and all-powerful being.

If god does know the future-- even if it doesn't yet exist? Then? The future is fixed in place, and free will is eliminated.

If the future isn't fixed, then god does not know what it is-- and we're back to god not being all-knowing.

But wait! some would argue-- there are many possible futures. Okay, but which one of the many, becomes the Realized Future? And even if god knows all of the many possibilities? If god doesn't know which of the many, becomes the Realized Present, that is knowledge god doesn't have-- and god loses the title to "all knowing".

What if they all become true, then? Well, in that case, you could argue that free will becomes meaningless, as that would mean all possible choices we "make" are "made" at once, and so why bother with any?

But you can only ever experience just the one "choice". So? All "choices" are being made, no matter what you attempt to do-- so Free Will becomes an illusion.

In truth, it's not possible to reconcile free will with an All Knowing god-- the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[Trailblazer]

Twist it however makes you feel good.

What i said was " life and respect for other human beings are what define your responsibility, if you refuse to abide by civilised mores then we are done here"

I do not like to try to interpret what other people mean by what they say.

I have no interest in feeling good. I just wanted to know what you meant.

Since I do not know what you mean by that statement, there is nothing I can do with it. Apparently, it is your indirect way of saying that I am not abiding by civilized mores, but I have no idea why you think that.

So I guess we are done here.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, I believe that Moses was a real person, a messenger of God just like Jesus and Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

Did any of them do the following? I don't think so.

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

Same question about Abraham. What in the Bible would give anybody the idea that he qualifies as being a manifestation?

 

[Trailblazer]

God put the tree in the garden in the first place. According to the Attractive Nuisance principle, God is liable for what happened. I would say that very much is an indication of God intervening/interfering in human free will choices.

As a Baha’i, I do not believe in the doctrine of Original Sin, but rather that story has allegorical meanings: 30: ADAM AND EVE

But let’s just say the story was true and Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God. Two important principles come into play here:
1) God is a not a human being, so is not subject to human laws and rules such as the Attractive Nuisance principle.
2) Adam and Eve were not children, they were adults, so they should have known better.

I see God as the Maker of this big chessboard we call earth. God has given humans this chessboard and we are the pieces moving around on the chessboard. God does not enter into the game and God is in no way responsible for how we move around or what we do with the chessboard. Once every 500-100 years, God sends a messenger with a set of instructions as to how to better play the game, but if people ignore those instructions then they don’t play the game as well as they otherwise might. There is no way they can blame God for that because humans have free will so they can choose to read the instructions.

Or consider the fate of this poor kid:
What kind of sadistic parents would put a hornets' nest in their kid's bedroom and then claim that it was his fault that he got stung? This is pretty much what God did to Adam and Eve, if that story is anything to go by.

God is a not a human parent who is responsible to protect His children from themselves, so God is not subject to behave like a human parent.

Maybe you think it is God’s fault that some people commit adultery since God created them with sexual organs whereby they could commit adultery...

If we follow this idea out, we can blame God for everything, because after all He created a material world in which people would do bad things..... We might at least have a legitimate case to hold God responsible for the Creation, since it was His Idea to create it, but if we are going to blame God for the bad things in the material world then we also have to give God credit for the good things... it cuts both ways.

 

[Trailblazer]

The thing about free-will is unless you have total control of the choices you are able to choose from, you really do not have free-will. Free-will is more than just choosing. Its about having control over what choices you can make. So unless a person has omnipotent powers, each of us is a slaved to what is presented to us. It sucks to be a slave to our list of choices.

I agree. We cannot choose anything we want to, because free will is constrained by many factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. However, that does not mean we cannot choose anything at all. For example, I can choose to spend my time on forums or do something else. I can choose to keep my house or sell it. I can choose to stay married or get divorced. I can choose to retire or continue working.

There are reasons I make one choice over another so it FEELS like I do not have a choice. However, if I stop and think about it, I realize I actually DO have a choice. I might just not like the consequences of one choice over another or I might feel guilty for making that choice.

Regarding free will, I think we need to be honest with ourselves and ask ourselves if we really have a choice to do one thing or another, or if we are rather just making excuses for not doing what we could do.We also need to ask ourselves why we are making certain choices.

For example, for years I have posted to this atheist (the one for whom I started this thread) and I ask myself: “Why do I keep posting to this man?” All he does is insult me constantly, and he never even responds to anything I say or any questions I ask; he just comes back with the same old tired argument. I never look forward to reading his posts, I cringe at the thought. But I know I have a choice to stop posting to him since I have done it before, and it felt good. I am just not ready to do it right now. I guess that is because I feel sorry for him, because he is a lost soul. I do not say that because he is an atheist. I have many atheist friends I do not consider lost at all. They just don’t see evidence for any god, but they do not have a derisive attitude towards god, thinking god is incompetent or evil and that they know more than god. I worry what will happen to people like that so it is hard to abandon them. But I know I do have a choice to keep posting to him so that is why I do not feel as bad as I otherwise might feel.

I sure know what it feels like to have life circumstances that suck. In many ways it is better now than in the past, but it is still not what I would consider ideal. I have huge stresses that most people my age do not have, but that is because I made the choices I made and now I am stuck with them... But am I really stuck? I could choose to divest myself of the two things that cause the most stress, but then I would lose something that I love very much and something that is beneficial to my financial security. So it is a trade-off.

I think the fact that I am aware that I have a choice gives me a sense of freedom, because I also know why I have not made that other choice but I know I can make that other choice if I change my mind.

That does not mean I can choose to do anything I might want to do as all choices fall within a set of parameters. For example, a person who does not have the money cannot choose to take a vacation to Hawaii and a person who is not intelligent enough could not choose to be a doctor. We all have limitations.

This is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the Internet. But sadly, I can assure you, I in no way shape or form speak for the Almighty. We are apart. Although if He starts up an eye-to-eye conversation with me I will not interrupt Him when He is talking.

Like I said, only messengers can speak for God because He delegated that responsibility to them. And it is also true that we are apart from God, since God has no partners or associates. God might speak to us in some way, but that is at His discretion.

I am happy to see that you render God the appropriate respect.

The problem is determining what is "objective evidence" is done by subjective judgments. Sometimes "junk" science is "good" science and vice versa.

That’s true. There is no way to avoid subjective judgments because we all have our own thoughts and feelings that come into play when we evaluate any kind of evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

So god created the universe, how it works and humans and he is omniscient but he did not create the bad stuff, the stuff you dont like, got ya.

To be clear, God created a material world in which many people will suffer, but many people will also be happy as the result of this world. It is thus a mixed bag.

We could blame God for everything, because after all He created a material world in which people would suffer, some more than others... We might at least have a legitimate case to hold God responsible for the Creation, since it was His Idea to create it, but if we are going to blame God for the bad things that happen in the material world then we also have to give God credit for the good things... it cuts both ways.

Also, and this is a main point, most of the bad things that happen are the result of human free will decisions people make. The same can be said of the good things. Sure, there is disease and there are natural disasters, and those are not freely chosen, so if you want to blame God for those go on ahead. You might however want to ask yourself why so many people have suffered diseases such as cancer and have lived through major disasters like hurricanes where they have lost everything, and yet they do not blame God for these things. Rather, most people thank God that they are still alive in spite of it all.

It makes your omni everything god a sick individual if he knows the good will be hurt and chooses to let it happen, perhaps he thinks is fun or perhaps he's on the side of the drunk/speeding driver.

God is not responsible to stop bad things from happening just because He could. If God intervened and stopped all bad things from happening it would completely upset the order in the world because God would have to override human free will. If God only stopped some bad things from happening and not others, then He would be playing favorites.

I consider it very childish to expect God to do everything for humans, things He has entrusted humans to do by virtue of their own free will.

I also consider it very unfair to suggest that God thinks it is fun to watch people suffer just because he does not stop all bad things from happening.However,God does not care what people think of Him because He is fully self-sufficient, above the need for any of His creatures. People only hurt themselves when they think that way about God. I know, because I did it for 10 years.

There is no way to put suffering in this world in proper perspective unless we understand that this is not the main act of the play; it is only the very first act and very short in comparison to the whole play, which is eternal. I have quotes that explain this much better than I ever could but I know you do not like quotes so out of respect I will not post them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes but a least an atheist acknowledges they are blind so probably wouldn't be flying in the first place. Whereas you get into a plane with the faithful, you really have no idea whether they know anything about God or not. I think the later is much more dangerous.

There are two ways to look at that. NOT believing in God at all might be more dangerous than having an incorrect conception of God. On the other hand, an agnostic who is searching for God might be in a better position than a believer who has the wrong conception of God, because that agnostic has a chance of finding out the truth about God whereas that believer might be stuck with the wrong conception about God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ummm... your two sentences contradict one another.
If this god already knows? Then? Free Will Is Impossible--- you cannot go against what an all-powerful god already knows. There is no choice. You are merely a robot.

Free Will is an expression of Power (albeit a small one).
If there is an All-Powerful deity in the same Universe? Then Free Will cannot exist.

In brief, the fact that God already knows what will happen is not what causes things to happen. Our free will choices cause things to happen. We cannot DO anything other than what God knows we will do, but that does not mean God is causing things to happen (making our choices).

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?
Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God........

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image. Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

God has created us with free will because He wants us to control our own lives, making choices that will enable us to learn and grow from our experiences and thereby mold our character.Our character is all we have after we die, we will be what we have become is who we will be in the afterlife, so it is really important that we acquired a good character here.

'Oh!' you argue 'god *grants* us free will'.

Then? The god in question is no longer All-Powerful-- having given some of that away.

God did not give any of HIS POWER away because God can override any free will decision we choose to make. God is kind of like a gatekeeper of choices and events, so if we make a choice that is not in accordance with God’s Will, it will not get through the Gate. Then we will have to make another decision. Of course we can never see this happening or know when it is happening. All we need to know is that God’s Will reigns supreme. We are working within parameters of what God will allow.

And more? It is no longer All Knowing-- because by giving Free Will? It also gives up fore-knowledge!
Free Will absolutely depends on the future NOT already being known!

No it does not, but I do not want to go around that block again. It gives me a big headache. However, I have discussed this at length on other forums so if you want I will post one of the explanations I have already written up. In the meantime, you can read this short chapter: 70: FREE WILL

 

[Trailblazer]

So. Your god is not all-powerful, then?

If it did not create it? It is not the ultimate creator-- having given up some of it's creative prerogative.

But. If your god knew that leukemia was going to happen-- and allowed it to happen?
Then?

It created it by default, for failing to prevent it in the first place.

Your god is guilty no matter how you try to spin it.

Believe whatever you like.

God is All-Powerful but that does not mean God has to USE all the power He has.

Many atheists blame God for everything just because God is omnipotent but this is simplistic thinking. God does not CAUSE things to happen in this contingent world. Humans cause things to happen by the free will decisions they make.

God is under NO obligation to prevent everything just because HE CAN. If God did that God would be a dictator, interfering in free will decisions people want to make. People need to be responsible for their own choices and actions.

It is always easier to blame God for everything that happens than take responsibility for what we do but an infallible God cannot be guilty and a fallible god is imaginary.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not, if I go by anything YOU say.... ! Your comments paint a god who is absolutely an immoral, irresponsible monster.

No, my comments don’t do that. It is the projection of your own thoughts and feelings ONTO my comments that do that; e.g., a God that does that/doesn’t do that MUST me a monster because a “good god” should be doing x, y, and z.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are being as irresponsible as your god--- in that you are deliberately creating Special Categories of People:

## those who are in the "club"
## everyone else

This is patently Unfair. Just like your descriptions of your god, so it's at least consistently immoral.

Only messengers get messages from God. That is just the way God operates. None of the rest of us get any communication from God either, so you are not being singled out.

Who wants a personal message from God anyway? Not me.

Messengers are a Special Category of People because they are MORE than ordinary people. They are God-men. As such they have special receptors that can pick up on communication from God and they have special abilities to relay that communication back to us ordinary humans.

 

[Trailblazer]

Travel back to 1963, please:

"But, officer! I did not know that cigarettes caused cancer! Arrest that man!"

"But, sir! There was a warning. You were warned."

<looks at the packet of cigarettes-- nothing. Looks at an individual cigarette, still nothing.>
"Where?"

"Oh, the warnings is in the Warning Department, in Atlanta, Georgia, in the basement of Phillip Marlowe building. Under lock and key, in a safe, guarded by a nest of poisonous snakes."

"But I live in Chicago! And I hate snakes!"

"Yes, that is true-- but you were warned!"

Humanity was warned what would happen if they did not heed the call of Baha’u’llah. It has been happening and it is happening right now.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

In brief, the fact that God already knows what will happen is not what causes things to happen. Our free will choices cause things to happen. We cannot DO anything other than what God knows we will do, but that does not mean God is causing things to happen (making our choices).

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?
Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God........

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image. Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

God has created us with free will because He wants us to control our own lives, making choices that will enable us to learn and grow from our experiences and thereby mold our character.Our character is all we have after we die, we will be what we have become is who we will be in the afterlife, so it is really important that we acquired a good character here.

God did not give any of HIS POWER away because God can override any free will decision we choose to make. God is kind of like a gatekeeper of choices and events, so if we make a choice that is not in accordance with God’s Will, it will not get through the Gate. Then we will have to make another decision. Of course we can never see this happening or know when it is happening. All we need to know is that God’s Will reigns supreme. We are working within parameters of what God will allow.

No it does not, but I do not want to go around that block again. It gives me a big headache. However, I have discussed this at length on other forums so if you want I will post one of the explanations I have already written up. In the meantime, you can read this short chapter: 70: FREE WILL

The summary of your entire post, above?

Is that there is absolutely NO SUCH THING AS FREE WILL.

Which I pointed out is a consequence of your god's attributes, several posts ago...

 

[Trailblazer]

I myself can not hold to the mythologies of the past to guide my life. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, are all mythologies meant to be taken literally. If God is real, God would have a universal message apart from human constructs. I must say God would stand apart from human constructs of who God is.

Reading some of the Gleanings, they refer to the days of Moses. It sounds to me like the author is trying to reconcile all religions as true, to unite mankind into one religion.

Yes, the eventual outcome of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is that all religions will unite under one common banner, the religion of God. That will be voluntary so it will be a long time coming.

There are some extraordinarily beautiful sayings in those Gleanings of the Ba'hai faith, yet i dont adhere to its overall conglomeration of all religions.

It espouses some very compelling visions though, particularly about doing away with superiority, arrogancy, and pride. And also the capacity for each individual to learn and understand the Divine nature.

The Baha’i Faith is not a conglomeration of the older religions with a new religion. It is a new religion since it is based upon a new revelation from God.

The Baha’i belief is that the older Dispensations have been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. Nevertheless, the Baha’i Faith upholds the eternal verities of the older religions, recognizes the Divine origin of their Prophets, clarifies and correlates the functions of the older religions, reaffirms their common fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, and recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, my comments don’t do that.

Yes, they absolutely do that....

It is the projection of your own thoughts and feelings ONTO my comments that do that; e.g., a God that does that/doesn’t do that MUST me a monster because a “good god” should be doing x, y, and z.

Nope. I have no Dog In This Hunt-- I do not believe in any gods, you see.

I could not possibly care less about yours.

Thus, I'm fairly unbiased, here-- it's 100% up to you to be convincing-- and you are simply not up to the task.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Only messengers get messages from God.

And?

That means your god is absolutely an IMMORAL MONSTER.

Because you think your god sets up CLASS societies-- with Special Teacher's Pets separate and distinct from everyone else: IMMORAL.

This is EXACTLY how wars get started!