What Would You Have Done?

[Debater Slayer]

I think that people of European descent are what a lot of other folks typically view as being "white," as whiteness (I think) is associated these days with Western civilization. I believe that race itself is more of a social construct than something based on actual science.

Agreed, on both counts. I usually think of these classifications in terms of ethnicity, not "race."

 

[Kenny]

He said he would consider what I said, and I don't see him as a racist. Based on my experience with him, I find him a well-meaning person who just has some overgeneralized beliefs like the one I mentioned.



I definitely agree that silence sometimes implies or at least seems to imply approval or agreement. In that situation, he made the comment in front of me and two other close friends, so we all knew each other and wouldn't think anyone's silence implied approval of such a comment. That was also part of why I waited until we were alone to talk to him about it, since I wanted to bring his attention to it rather than embarrass him or put him on the spot. I think that approach is generally better with well-intentioned people who are open to introspection and direct communication.

When it comes to talking with a friend or well-intentioned person about anything that could come across as critical, a general rule I follow is that compliments are okay to make in public, but potentially critical feedback is best kept private.

I like that position!

 

[Debater Slayer]

What you did was fine in my judgment, especially since you were uncomfortable making the comment you made and he was a good enough friend that you thought he could hear your objection.

I was uncomfortable with bringing up critical feedback in front of our other friends rather than with making the comment per se. We're definitely close enough for either of us to be okay with hearing objections from the other, yes.

I wouldn't have been offended, and I'm Caucasian. "White people's problem" translates to a problem only people of means and privilege might have of any color. It's more appropriately called rich people's problems.

It's analogous to the phrase "first world hunger" in the facetious sense, as in 'I'm hungry but not really. I just want something to eat because I'm bored.' My wife and I use the phrase, and it's self-deprecating, not bigoted.

THIS, from Seinfeld, is first-world hunger:

Elaine: Come on. Let's go do something. I don't want to just sit around here. Wanna get something to eat?
Jerry: Where?
Elaine: I don't care. I'm not hungry.

Back to white-people problems, here's a wealthy fictional band member discussing his new spin-off ban. He doesn't use the phrase, but the meaning is the same - it's good to have rich people's problems:

William Murderface: You know what my fear is? I just hope this doesn't become bigger than Dethklok. You know, that's, that'd be... that'd be something, you know.
Dick Knubbler: Well, uh, I will tell you this, that's a good problem to have. That's a problem you want to have. It's a good one.

I took it to be a variation of "first-world problems" as well, although my main objection was that it treated being white as synonymous with having a comfortable life or being easily inconvenienced. I don't think he had bigoted intentions when he used it, which also affected what I said to him when I talked to him about it.

 

[Revoltingest]

The thing is that we (Arabs) typically don't think of ourselves as "white" or define our ethnicity based on skin color. It's a way of classification that makes little sense in the context of many countries outside the US.

Are you really an Arab if not from the Arabian peninsula?
(I know Iranian ex-pats who bristle at being called "Arab".)

It's rather odd for white people to deny they're white
by treating a skin color label as an ethnicity only for
some whites. Hence my answer to your titular question,
which would mirthfully address his racist-lite attitude
that all whites (but for him) are of the same ethnicity.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Are you really an Arab if not from the Arabian peninsula?
I know Iranians who take offense at being called "Arab".

My lineage includes Arab, North African, and most likely Hellenic or Canaanite ancestry, among others. Since multiple countries outside of the Arabian Peninsula have seen a lot of migration from Arabs and intermarriage between their native populations and Arabs, yes, someone can be an Arab without being from the Arabian Peninsula (i.e., without being born there or without having any relatively recent ancestors from there).

It's rather odd for white people to deny they're white
by treating a skin color label as an ethnicity only for
some whites.

Using "white" as a marker exclusively for skin color regardless of ethnicity seems to largely be an American phenomenon nowadays. If you ask Egyptians, Moroccans, Saudis, Syrians, or any other people who predominantly have relatively light skin tones whether they consider themselves "white people," many (if not most) of them will say no.

 

[Revoltingest]

My lineage includes Arab, North African, and most likely Hellenic or Canaanite ancestry, among others. Since multiple countries outside of the Arabian Peninsula have seen a lot of migration from Arabs and intermarriage between their native populations and Arabs, yes, someone can be an Arab without being from the Arabian Peninsula (i.e., without being born there or without having any relatively recent ancestors from there).



Using "white" as a marker exclusively for skin color regardless of ethnicity seems to largely be an American phenomenon nowadays. If you ask Egyptians, Moroccans, Saudis, Syrians, or any other people who predominantly have relatively light skin tones whether they consider themselves "white people," many (if not most) of them will say no.

To "Arabs", all these "white" people around the globe are a single ethnicity?
This raises questions....
Are all "blacks" the same ethnicity too?
Are all from middle eastern countries "Arabs"?

 

[Debater Slayer]

To "Arabs", all these "white" people around the globe are a single ethnicity?

Arabs, like any other large group, don't agree on everything. But no, I don't think most Arabs believe that everyone with a light skin tone is of the same ethnicity, since it's quite obvious that a person of European ancestry and one of Syrian or North African ancestry are of different ethnicities despite both having a light skin tone.

It's mainly that the common usage of "white people" has largely become associated, in many places around the world, with light-skinned people of European descent, not everyone who has a light skin tone.

This raises questions....
Are all "blacks" the same ethnicity too?
Are all from middle eastern countries "Arabs"?

No and no. I have also never heard a Nubian or Sudanese person, for example, refer to themselves as "black" as their most salient ethnic or racial descriptor. Our continent (Africa) is mainly comprised of black people of vastly diverse ethnicities, which is one of the reasons using skin color as the primary defining feature for such classification makes no sense.

 

[Revoltingest]

Arabs, like any other large group, don't agree on everything. But no, I don't think most Arabs believe that everyone with a light skin tone is of the same ethnicity, since it's quite obvious that a person of European ancestry and one of Syrian or North African ancestry are of different ethnicities despite both having a light skin tone.

We're talking about sharing ethnicity....not agreeing about everything.

It's mainly that the common usage of "white people" has largely become associated, in many places around the world, with light-skinned people of European descent, not everyone who has a light skin tone.



No and no.

So blacks & Arabs aren't all the same ethnicity,
but all whites are the same ethnicity, eh. At least
according to "Arabs".
Sounds like there's a whole lotta bigotry around
the rest of the world. I like this. It's fun.

 

[Debater Slayer]

We're talking about sharing ethnicity....not agreeing about everything.

Most Arabs and most Europeans don't share the same ethnicity. I'm not sure what's controversial about this statement.

So blacks & Arabs aren't all the same ethnicity, but all whites are the same ethnicity, eh.
Sounds like there's a whole lotta bigotry around
the rest of the world.

We seem to be speaking past each other, since that's not what I said. This is what I said:

It's mainly that the common usage of "white people" has largely become associated, in many places around the world, with light-skinned people of European descent, not everyone who has a light skin tone.

This is simply an issue of common usage of terms and their contextual meanings. It doesn't imply that all people with a light skin tone are of the same ethnicity; just that the specific term "white people" is, in common parlance, used to refer to a subset of light-skinned people rather than all of them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Most Arabs and most Europeans don't share the same ethnicity. I'm not sure what's controversial about this statement.



We seem to be speaking past each other, since that's not what I said. This is what I said:



This is simply an issue of common usage of terms and their contextual meanings. It doesn't imply that all people with a light skin tone are of the same ethnicity; just that the specific term "white people" is, in common parlance, used to refer to a subset of light-skinned people rather than all of them.

I've nothing to add.

 

[Soandso]

I think you handled that well

Reminds me of when I was a kid. My best friend at the time has a little brother who always had nasty things to say about white folks. Nobody else in his family was like that, so I don't know where he got it from. From the time he was a kid up until the time he was an adult he was always that way

One day he instigated a fist fight with one of his brothers, the cops came and took him away. While in jail, he ran his mouth about white people and promptly had the stuffing kicked out of him by his cell mates. That changed him. He went nuts after that

Growing up, their family lived down the street from mine. While their family moved to the next city over, my parents still live in that same old house. He ended up walking miles to my parents place and was looking for me. He wanted to say hi to me. I don't think he meant any harm, but my dad said that his eyes looked empty - nobody was home. My dad drove him to his dad's house and dropped him off there

Apparently since then he dove out of a second story window because he thought the police were putting cameras and listening devices in his room. Last I heard, the poor guy is a resident in a mental health institution

I didn't dislike the guy, and I'm sad to see what came of him

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Agreed, on both counts. I usually think of these classifications in terms of ethnicity, not "race."

I can empathize with the discomfort you must have felt at the time. Here you have one of your friends, not necessarily being racist, but perhaps being a jerk. And you're thinking about your other friends (not present at the time) who might have been hurt had they heard what your friend said.

I have friends who can be jerks at times. Heck, I'm sometimes a jerk, too. If a friend of mine is being a jerk about something, then I'll be a jerk right back at him by making a joke about him and the ridiculous thing that he had just said (as with the example I gave you in my previous post). Then we'll both laugh about it and the situation is diffused. I think that I often get through to my friends better that way, than attempting to lecture them. (I'm not saying that you were lecturing anyone -- it's just that sometimes people will get defensive and will see it as being lectured.)

 

[Soandso]

I can empathize with the discomfort you must have felt at the time. Here you have one of your friends, not necessarily being racist, but perhaps being a jerk. And you're thinking about your other friends (not present at the time) who might have been hurt had they heard what your friend said.

I have friends who can be jerks at times. Heck, I'm sometimes a jerk, too. If a friend of mine is being a jerk about something, then I'll be a jerk right back at him by making a joke about him and the ridiculous thing that he had just said (as with the example I gave you in my previous post). Then we'll both laugh about it and the situation is diffused. I think that I often get through to my friends better that way, than attempting to lecture them. (I'm not saying that you were lecturing anyone -- it's just that sometimes people will get defensive and will see it as being lectured.)

That's a good point. Sometimes people aren't aware when they're saying something that's out of pocket and need to be checked so they are aware of where/what that boundary is. Humor can be a great tool to use for that

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can see how it would be better in some situations to put a racist comment into perspective by highlighting how awful it wound sound to the person who made it if it were about another group. Thankfully, in my friend's case, he does try his best to avoid attitudes that are racist, sexist, etc., and he's not resistant to communication to the point where someone else would need to respond to him so bluntly.

Yes, the response does have to vary with the individual. The example I gave is a bit more extreme, and for that sort of individual almost nothing would work anyway.

Best of luck with your friend. He does not sound as if he is one of the hopeless ones.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes, the response does have to vary with the individual. The example I gave is a bit more extreme, and for that sort of individual almost nothing would work anyway.

Best of luck with your friend. He does not sound as if he is one of the hopeless ones.

Thanks. He's a great guy. He's also quite empathetic, an example of which is his carrying cat food in his backpack to feed stray cats when he can. I don't see any indication that he would be motivated by malice rather than misunderstanding or a genuine mistake (which all of us are prone to from time to time, after all).

 

[LuisDantas]

Speaking as someone who is called a white person in Brazil and would probably be called a latino in the USA, I don't really know what to make of that saying.

It is probably racist, but it is also a bit odd. At least when used to imply that white people deserve or need public transport that other groups can do without. I have to assume that it is in the humorous side and that your friend isn't really hoping that white people will have benefits that others will not.

I guess I would have pointed out the issue gently and left it at that for a while. Even if he is passionate and choleric about that feeling, it is usually easier to make people reconsider if confrontation can be avoided.

Under certain circunstances I might also want to point out that individual people do not choose their own ethnic compositions and that there is no healthy group or individual that dislikes receiving a certain amount of attention and respect.

 

[LuisDantas]

My lineage includes Arab, North African, and most likely Hellenic or Canaanite ancestry, among others. Since multiple countries outside of the Arabian Peninsula have seen a lot of migration from Arabs and intermarriage between their native populations and Arabs, yes, someone can be an Arab without being from the Arabian Peninsula (i.e., without being born there or without having any relatively recent ancestors from there).



Using "white" as a marker exclusively for skin color regardless of ethnicity seems to largely be an American phenomenon nowadays. If you ask Egyptians, Moroccans, Saudis, Syrians, or any other people who predominantly have relatively light skin tones whether they consider themselves "white people," many (if not most) of them will say no.

Alas, many Brazilians will call themselves "white" in constrat to our darker-skinned brothers and sisters pretty much out of skin color alone.

As a matter of fact, some people of darker skin tones insist that they are "white" as well.

To a considerable extent Brazilians discriminate each other by contrasting apparent levels of wealth above all else (we have very serious wealth distribution issues) and for various reasons we are often very uncertain about our own specific ethnic ancestries. The end result is that we use various indicators of apparent wealth, and skin tone is one of those indicators. A major but not in itself decisive indicator.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

@LuisDantas @Debater Slayer regarding treatment on pigmentation alone:

Here in the US white is a linguistic shorthand but our history does not have discrimination limited to skin tone alone. A black person with albinism would fare no better than someone with the darkest tones a hundred years or so, because of how eugenics and 'blood quantum' style racism impacted the discussion. Our very concept of beauty has deeply disturbing histories of emphasizing traditionally Caucasian features as beautiful and all else as either ugly or 'exotic charm.' Something that's also been emphasized by hundreds of years of black and white propaganda cartoons which relied on, unsurprisingly, cartoonish exaggerations of ethnic traits. We still have 'fantasy characters' whose looks started out as intentional propaganda against Jews, black people, Asians, Arabs, Irish etc.

 

[syo]

I choose my friends. After that, I give them total liberty.

 

[ChristineM]

I'd say I'm not really a fan of such overt racism so could they please knock it on the head. If he thinks it's funny, it isn't.

I'm definitely not a fan of racism. This would be my approach.