Whatever else might be argued, this much is true: ...

[Jayhawker Soule]

I used to think Jews were against racism...
condemnation, not barbaric revenge.

I use to think that you were above floating noxious antisemitic generalizations ...

... no, actually, I've never thought that about you. Sorry.

 

[Orbit]

It's also very likely that few Chinese restaurants offer decent pizza, but neither observation has anything to do with the poll.

Trying to force a choice in a false dichotomy, as a sort of shibboleth to determine if someone has the "correct" opinion is counter-productive, especially when this is the rhetoric coming out of Israel is this:

Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible"

1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***"

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The hamas attack was a war crime, the Israeli response is also a war crime. Two wrongs don't make a right.

How wonderful -- another "yes, but" response, one curiously reminiscent of the "Black Lives Matter" push-back.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's also very likely that few Chinese restaurants offer decent pizza, but neither observation has anything to do with the poll.

@F1fan's post is relevant to this thread because
your poll is about "unqualified condemnation".
To answer, one must consider any "qualification",
eg, reasons that Hamas committed this heinous
act, effects upon innocents, including Palestinians.

Had your question been solely about condemnation,
it would be narrower. You opened that door.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Trying to force a choice in a false dichotomy, ...

You feel forced?

 

[Revoltingest]

I use to think that you were above floating noxious antisemitic generalizations ...

... no, actually, I've never thought that about you. Sorry.

I once thought you cared about all of humanity.
I know otherwise now.

This isn't made as snark.
You've really surprised me about this.

Edit....
This post is unproductive.
Ignore it.
I'd delete it, but he might respond to it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

All Palestinians are not Hamas.

And therein lies much of the problem. The law of arms generally separates combatants from civilians. It doesn't fully protect civilians, but it does some good (if there's any good in war). But Hamas hides in the schools, hospitals, office buildings, apartment buildings and mosques where Palestians live, work, learn and play. And worship, too. One can only imagine that the purpose of doing so is to tie Israel's hands - to force them, by the "law of arms," to do nothing against them.

 

[ChristineM]

How wonderful -- another "yes, but" response, one curiously reminiscent of the "Black Lives Matter" push-back.

You don't like it then wtf did you creat the biased thread in the first place?

 

[Eddi]

Yes, they were a barbaric crime that demands unqualified condemnation

 

[Harel13]

Read this. There are people there that have been working towards peaceful co-existence for some time, and are still doing so in spite of recent events. It gave me some hope. It's a long read, but the main thrust is easy to see.

Hope for Palestinian-Jewish Partnership here is not Lost, I Pray

From the blog of Haviva Ner-David at The Times of Israel

blogs.timesofisrael.com

I find it curious that you bring this as evidence that there are people interested in "working towards peaceful co-existence" as you put it. All the Arab people the writer met and referenced in the article were Israeli Arabs. She chose to use the term "Palestinian Israelis" but those aren't people who live under the PA government. They live in Israel proper. Kfar Manda, for example, is in the Galilee (by the way, that was a Jewish village in the Talmudic period), not Judea, Samaria, the Golan or the Gaza Strip (AKA geopolitically disputed regions). Yes, Israelis get along. Some of us have served together, studied together, worked together. I think that when she wrote in her article's title "here" she wasn't talking about two states. She was talking about inter-Israeli relations. Because last time there was a different story. Arguably, most Israeli Arabs hold a different mentality than that of Arabs in Gaza and the PA. They absolutely enjoy having equal rights in a democratic state, more rights than tens of millions of people (if not more) in the entire region could ever dream of. Are Arabs in Gaza and the PA interested in living in such a state? Highly unclear.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Then you'll be doomed to never understand
why the weak lash out against oppressors
as they do.
If it's wrong to murder babies in Israel, it should
also be wrong for Israel to bomb babies (& others).
Does that balance ever intrude on your need for
vengeance against Palestinians?

Hamas along with their financial facilitators in Iran are by no means "weak." And, yes, it is wrong to bomb babies, although Israel is not targeting babies as Hamas targets babies. The posts by @sun rise are not a call for "vengeance against Palestinians" (as you viciously imply). However, your own posts are a consistent and vile call for vengeance against Jews.

Israel's goal is not to extract vengeance on Palestinians. It is to put Hamas totally out of operation. This can only be achieved by destroying Hamas' underground infrastructure, which consists of a maze of tunnels beneath Gaza through which Hamas operatives are able to bring in the rockets and other weaponry that they consistently use to bombard Israeli towns and, most recently, boldly emerge from to massacre people at a peaceful music festival and entire Israeli families.

@idea suggested that Israelis could open up their homes to Palestinian refugees, providing them with shelter. That's a nice thought, but also a naive one. While clearly not all Palestinians are Hamas sympathizers, there are nevertheless Hamas operatives who conceal themselves among the Palestinian people. How could an Israeli family be safe with the possibility of bringing a disguised Hamas operative into their home? We saw how Hamas operatives massacred families in the homes of the towns they attacked on October 7th. Who would take such a risk?

There are LGBTQ Palestinians (as well as LGBTQ people from other countries in the Middle East) who have managed in past years to find shelter in Israel's city of Tel Aviv, a city with a very large LGBTQ population where the community can life openly and safely. Israel would provide asylum for more except for the clear fact that, again, Hamas operatives would seize upon this as yet another opportunity to infiltrate and terrorize. By the way, I am endlessly amazed at how many people there are who, while simultaneously championing LGBTQ rights and condemning Israel, conveniently ignore the fact that the human rights of LGBTQ people are utterly absent in Palestine.

Yes, life has been difficult for Palestinians under the Israeli government. The reason for that is not because Israel hates Palestinians, or equates all Palestinians with terrorists. There is much distrust, though, and that is not without reason. Some people have forgotten the many years of suicide bombings on public buses and elsewhere in Israel, committed by fanatics in the belief that their martyrdom would win them an instant ticket to Paradise. I have one friend, now living here in the U.S., who grew up in Israel during those times. When she was a child, she narrowly missed being on one of those buses in which several of her friends were immolated when the terrorist detonated his bomb. But this is insignificant to you because, well, we are all evil Jews and deserve it, don't we?

Israel murders more Palestinians than vice versa.
But your caring only about Israel reinforces my
theme in the other thread that Christians & Jews
don't value Muslim lives.

All sane people value human life, including Christians and Jews whom you exclude. I am a Jew and the death of innocent Palestinians brings me pain and I am not untouched by the horrors of war. I am a Jew who has also spoken up time and again, on this very forum, in defense of the Muslim people -- many of whom I have come to personally know through interactions with the several mosques here on Long Island where I live. I won't try to fathom what "reinforces" whatever goes through your head, @Revoltingest. I suspect that there is a kind of illness lurking in there in regard to your deep antipathy for Christian and Jewish people. I hope you find some peace.

Edited to change @sunrise to @sun rise

 

[Alien826]

I find it curious that you bring this as evidence that there are people interested in "working towards peaceful co-existence" as you put it. All the Arab people the writer met and referenced in the article were Israeli Arabs. She chose to use the term "Palestinian Israelis" but those aren't people who live under the PA government. They live in Israel proper. Kfar Manda, for example, is in the Galilee (by the way, that was a Jewish village in the Talmudic period), not Judea, Samaria, the Golan or the Gaza Strip (AKA geopolitically disputed regions). Yes, Israelis get along. Some of us have served together, studied together, worked together. I think that when she wrote in her article's title "here" she wasn't talking about two states. She was talking about inter-Israeli relations. Because last time there was a different story. Arguably, most Israeli Arabs hold a different mentality than that of Arabs in Gaza and the PA. They absolutely enjoy having equal rights in a democratic state, more rights than tens of millions of people (if not more) in the entire region could ever dream of. Are Arabs in Gaza and the PA interested in living in such a state? Highly unclear.

I was looking for an article that I had seen before that might have been more to my point. I failed to find it and thought this one might give a similar message. By the way, in 1948 the whole place was "Palestine" and all the Arabs living there were "Palestinians". So I don't think it's totally misleading to describe those that remain that way. It does show Arabs and Jews trying to "get along" which I was hoping would be a counter to the "both sides hate each other" opinion.

Incidentally, how Arabs are treated in Israel is not universally benign, at least according to some things I've read. However, I don't think this is the place to discuss it with you, though under other circumstances I would welcome it. You say "some of us" which suggests you live in Israel. I don't want to risk saying something offensive so I'll just hope that you are not personally involved in this.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hamas along with their financial facilitators in Iran are by no means "weak."

Weakness is relative.
Hamas is dangerous to Israelis, but not an existential threat.
And Iran hasn't acted in Israel, although the reverse isn't true.
Moreover, Iran hears USA'S exhortations to destroy them if
they war with Israel. USA is Israel's belligerent bodyguard.

And, yes, it is wrong to bomb babies, although Israel is not targeting babies as Hamas targets babies.

This isn't quite so when one considers Israel's stated
intention to prioritize destruction over accuracy.
The foreseeable result of indiscriminate bombing
is to kill far far more Palestinian babies. Doing so
by remote control is no less evil than personally
killing them.

The posts by @sunrise are not a call for "vengeance against Palestinians" (as you viciously imply). However, your own posts are a consistent and vile call for vengeance against Jews.

And once again, the anti-semitism card is played.
That's a hideous & dishonest ad hominem tactic.
Shame on you.
I've called for Israel to survive in peace. To to give
Palestinians justice instead of oppression & death.
I've described Israel's conduct as evil.
I stand by those calls as reasonable.

Israel's goal is not to extract vengeance on Palestinians.

This is at odds with Isreal's stated intention of
destruction over accuracy. With the demand
that over a million people flee to become refugees
with no destination. To kill over 8,000 (latest
figure I saw) & injure over 17,000.
I see Israel & apologists in denial of this brutality.

It is to put Hamas totally out of operation. This can only be achieved by destroying Hamas' underground infrastructure, which consists of a maze of tunnels beneath Gaza through which Hamas operatives are able to bring in the rockets and other weaponry that they consistently use to bombard Israeli towns and, most recently, boldly emerge from to massacre people at a peaceful music festival and entire Israeli families.

In short, at any cost.
This is where we differ, ie, the cost of such vengeful
destruction of Hamas has too high a casualty rate
among Palestinians. Too little regard for their
rights & lives.

@idea suggested that Israelis could open up their homes to Palestinian refugees, providing them with shelter. That's a nice thought, but also a naive one. While clearly not all Palestinians are Hamas sympathizers, there are nevertheless Hamas operatives who conceal themselves among the Palestinian people. How could an Israeli family be safe with the possibility of bringing a disguised Hamas operative into their home? We saw how Hamas operatives massacred families in the homes of the towns they attacked on October 7th. Who would take such a risk?

There are LGBTQ Palestinians (as well as LGBTQ people from other countries in the Middle East) who have managed in past years to find shelter in Israel's city of Tel Aviv, a city with a very large LGBTQ population where the community can life openly and safely. Israel would provide asylum for more except for the clear fact that, again, Hamas operatives would seize upon this as yet another opportunity to infiltrate and terrorize. By the way, I am endlessly amazed at how many people there are who, while simultaneously championing LGBTQ rights and condemning Israel, conveniently ignore the fact that the human rights of LGBTQ people are utterly absent in Palestine.

Yes, life has been difficult for Palestinians under the Israeli government. The reason for that is not because Israel hates Palestinians, or equates all Palestinians with terrorists. There is much distrust, though, and that is not without reason. Some people have forgotten the many years of suicide bombings on public buses and elsewhere in Israel, committed by fanatics in the belief that their martyrdom would win them an instant ticket to Paradise. I have one friend, now living here in the U.S., who grew up in Israel during those times. When she was a child, she narrowly missed being on one of those buses in which several of her friends were immolated when the terrorist detonated his bomb. But this is insignificant to you because, well, we are all evil Jews and deserve it, don't we?



All sane people value human life, including Christians and Jews whom you exclude. I am a Jew and the death of innocent Palestinians brings me pain and I am not untouched by the horrors of war. I am a Jew who has also spoken up time and again, on this very forum, in defense of the Muslim people -- many of whom I have come to personally know through interactions with the several mosques here on Long Island where I live. I won't try to fathom what "reinforces" whatever goes through your head, @Revoltingest. I suspect that there is a kind of illness lurking in there in regard to your deep antipathy for Christian and Jewish people. I hope you find some peace.

Thinking the same old way, that only oppression
& overwhelming military response can achieve
peace. It hasn't worked yet. And it's caused
far too many deaths.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, they were a barbaric crime that demands unqualified condemnation

By its actions, Israel created Hamas.
Thus condemnation must be qualified.
The OP appears to demand focus on a singular
fact, ie, that Hamas is evil. Ignore all other facts.
Don't consider why Hamas exists.
Ignore Israel's oppression of Palestinians.
Justify the mass destruction & death unleashed
upon Palestinians in Gaza. Feelings of righteous
vengeance wash away twinges of guilt for war crimes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Talk about existential threats....
Hillary threatened a pogrom against Iran, on behalf of Israel.

Hillary Clinton's Appalling Enthusiasm for War

Hillary Clinton exhibits an appalling enthusiasm for United States wars not in self-defense, i.e., legalized murders on an industrial scale that create enemies while destroying our liberties and prosperity at home.

www.huffpost.com

Excerpted....
In 2008, she promised if elected president to "obliterate" Iran if it attacked Israel--even if the United States was unthreatened and Congress had not authorized war: "I want the Iranians to know, if I am the president, we will attack Iran... And I want them to understand that... we would be able to totally obliterate them [to retaliate for an attack on Israel]."

 

[Harel13]

I was looking for an article that I had seen before that might have been more to my point. I failed to find it and thought this one might give a similar message. By the way, in 1948 the whole place was "Palestine" and all the Arabs living there were "Palestinians". So I don't think it's totally misleading to describe those that remain that way. It does show Arabs and Jews trying to "get along" which I was hoping would be a counter to the "both sides hate each other" opinion.

I didn't outright state that what she said was misleading. Well, at least not purposely. She probably believes in the legitimacy of that terminology and used it in a natural manner. Okay. I'm against usage of the term because of its origins (here's a good summary of the topic), and others - Jews, Arabs etc who are against the term may have different reasons. In this case, I thought it was important to point out because it doesn't further your argument all that much. In some ways (but not all), it would be like writing an article about cooperation between Hispanic Americans and Japanese Americans and then another party suggesting that the article is evidence for cooperation between Spain and Japanese Americans.

Incidentally, how Arabs are treated in Israel is not universally benign, at least according to some things I've read.

Yes, that's true. But many different Jewish circles in Israel (from non-religious to super religious) claim to be mistreated by the system as well. So the system isn't perfect, obviously, and everyone will agree to that. Israeli Arabs enjoy many forms of affirmative action that many Israeli Jews don't.

However, I don't think this is the place to discuss it with you, though under other circumstances I would welcome it. You say "some of us" which suggests you live in Israel. I don't want to risk saying something offensive so I'll just hope that you are not personally involved in this.

Yes, I am Israeli (I've never hidden the fact and you can see it on my profile). Thanks, I appreciate the thought, but I get into these threads knowing I'll hear a lot of things I don't like, and sometimes I quit in the middle or don't get into them at all.

 

[Eddi]

Thus condemnation must be qualified.

Those acts of violence were completely inhuman and can never be excused, they were totally depraved

Which is not to say that some of the things that Israel does (and is doing) are all fine and OK, because they're not

In this conflict some people clearly favour one side over another

Personally I find the entire thing monstrously horrific and don't take one side over the other

I see it as a terrible mess and don't much like to think about it

 

[Yerda]

It was an atrocity.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Israel murders more Palestinians than vice versa.
But your caring only about Israel reinforces my
theme in the other thread that Christians & Jews
don't value Muslim lives.

It appears even Muslims don't value other Muslim lives, given that Hamas are either stupid and/or cynical to attack Israel in that manner and not to understand what the result might be. And playing the victim role, even if this is true in this case for the majority living in Gaza (especially the children), this will not always gain sympathy when the hatred of Jews seems to follow along with this.

 

[Revoltingest]

Those acts of violence were completely inhuman and can never be excused, they were totally depraved

I agree.

Which is not to say that some of the things that Israel does (and is doing) are all fine and OK, because they're not

Agree again.

In this conflict some people clearly favour one side over another

I favor both.
But Israel gets the lion's share of the criticism because
it is top dog in the region, with full unquestioned backing
of the west, its military, & threat of annihilating any
country that attacks Israel. It has the power to allow
Palestinians justice, but it choose otherwise. Being in
the driver's seat gives it primary responsibility for the
problem & its solution....legal solution, ie, no war crimes.

Personally I find the entire thing monstrously horrific and don't take one side over the other

Take the side of pursuing the most just possible solution for all.

I see it as a terrible mess and don't much like to think about it

Thinking has been in short supply.